"do you BELIEVE in abortion?"
i went into my favorite natural foods store the other day to grab some sage and, as usual, chatted with the woman who runs the place, just like i've done since i was 15 and started going in there. i told her about my job interview and how excited i am that i think i've got the job, and she asked if i'd "have to be helping people get abortions." i told her yes, part of my job will be counselling people with unplanned pregnancies, and helping them decide if abortion is an option for them. her eyebrows went up and she said "oh, do you BELIEVE in abortion?"
i paused, surprised, and then said "yes, i believe in freedom of choice," which makes more sense than saying "yeah, i totally LOVE abortions! woo, abortions!" and then she said in a disdainful tone "would you ever get an abortion for yourself?"
i was surprised at her pushiness but always enjoy the opportunity to engage in conversations about this topic so i said "i'm not sure. i'd have to be in the situation to decide for sure. i would have thought a few years ago that i would have an abortion if i had an unplanned pregnancy but you know i have a daughter. when i found out i was pregnant with her i decided to have the baby."
"how old were you?" she pressed.
"25."
and she went "pffft" and waved her hand in the air dismissively. "oh, it's not like you were like 19 or something. there was no reason for you to have an abortion."
yeah, i was pretty fucking offended. she was bagging my purchase at that point in the convo and handed it to me while i was still stumbling over how to respond. i ended up just saying "well, sometimes there's a little more to it than that. have a nice day," and walked out because i didn't want to start a pissy argument with her.
this isn't the first time i've heard this rhetoric concerning this issue, and it's obnoxious and rude. being anti-choice is bad enough, but just as shitty is the anti-choice judgement that some people apply ONLY TO CERTAIN PEOPLE. married? nope, no abortions for you. college grad with a decent job? no abortions for you, either. suck it up. mother of two? HELL NO, no abortion for you either. you've already got two kids, what's the difference if you have one more?
and hell, over 20? quit being a baby and just have a damn baby, already! stop whining, it's not like you're still in high school!
it's sickening. that store has kind of been ruined for me now because of that woman's obvious lack of respect for the choices of others, and every time i go in there now i'm going to want to avoid her because it annoys me. she's a totally nice lady, i've never taken issue with a single thing she's ever said before, but i feel weird now.
and i think the next time someone asks me if i "believe" in abortion i'm going to say "nah, i think it's just an urban legend the conservatives made up to scare people."
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"nah, i think it's just an urban legend the conservatives made up to scare people."
Can I steal this?...awesome!
I know it's hard but try not to worry about her too much. Now that you are going to be working in the women's health environment you are going to have a lot of ppl with their opinions and ideas about what is right. There is a lot of negativity around women's health and their choices, I know you know this. I know you KNOW this...But try to let it slide off. Don't let your experience ruin your feelings for the natural food store and this lady. You never know, maybe at some point you'll be able to enlighten her simply by not taking offense. I've found that people with narrow views often cling to them harder when pressed but will do a complete about face when presented with the reality in human terms, sometimes simply by knowing someone that shatters their stereotype. Often when someone they can connect to, even simply, is presented it can help them disconnect from the illusion that we all fit into some ideal, or should. There is no black and white...keep exuding your shade of grey and don't worry about hers!
<3
lm
As someone who once held much narrower views, and has become someone who loves every shade of gray due to knowing people willing to share their stories, you are correct. For me, it also took being put in the situation where I had to make the decision (abortion or no abortion) to somewhat understand this plight myself. She may get it some day, but it will take someone being very, very patient.
I hope I can have the opportunity to one day work or volunteer in the very women's centers I was once encouraged to picket and protest by my own church. I applaud you, phoenix, for counseling these women. It was a counselor at a women's center in my town who helped me sit down and sort everything out. I think I would have lost it if someone had said, "Oh, you're 27, have health insurance, and the father is willing to jump in and give it a go? Well, then you shouldn't have an abortion." If outlining our demographics was all we needed to do, it would make this whole thing much simpler!
I would also like to steal your last line, if I might. Brilliant. 
"Thou shalt not" might reach the head, but it takes "Once upon a time..." to reach the heart. -Philip Pullman
i've claimed not to believe it happens.
because you can't have a real conversation with someone like that, it's not possible. i've had people ask me "yeah, but do you think people SHOULD have abortions?"
what stupid question. seriously. what's the answer? yes? no? if you're a human with a prefrontal cortex, you can't answer it. which really reveals the stupidity of the asker. and when i say stupidity, i mean that in the most literal way possible. what it reveals is, that these are people who only do things because they think they SHOULD, and refrain from doing things only because they SHOULDN'T. extrapolate that more and it reveals that they were most likely told by SOMEONE ELSE what they should and should not do, and that is how they live their lives.
the very definition of stupidity.
dangerous, menacing people who wouldn't know basic decency if it fucked them in the ass, and are therefore not entitled to it, nor do they ever display it. cattle. protoplasm. biohazardous waste.
ok, maybe that's a tad extreme. but not much. these are people who follow the herd, which are the kind of people who cause most if not all suffering and harm in the world. it's not ok to be stupid. and her viewpoint is simply invalid and not respectable.
{eye roll} people just dont fucking get it. it's like when i've been called "pro-abortion" by well-meaning acquaintances who are trying to start conversations about the topic, like "oh, miss phoenix is very pro-abortion, you should talk to her about it." because yeah, you know me....creeping around on playgrounds and schoolyards trying to convince the impressionable youth of america that abortion is AWESOME, WHEEEEE!
"no, just me." because i knew he knew i'd had one.
way to be passive-aggressive, dude. ugh.
it's always superfun when someone's BS opinions are aimed specifically at you and you know it, but it's usually the kind of thing where if you call them on it they'll be like "WHAT?! nooooo, i didn't mean YOU!" yeah, of course you didn't mean me, i must just be crazy and paranoid.
there was nothing passive about his aggression, he was happy i caught it. but he was also at a loss for words. maybe he expected me to shy away from the topic? dunno. but the person who told him my biznezz got an earful that night.
that's fucking shitty, i'm sorry. having personal shit spilled and then to be subjected to the moral compass is awful. he probably did expect you to play nicey-nicey and pretend to not notice, and he's a moron.
I am really itching to use "you wouldn't know decency if it fucked you in the ass. "
I would probably have said, "Well, I've had three, at three different times in my life and for three different reasons, but I'm not sure if that answers your question."
"Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself; but talent instantly recognizes genius"--Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
i'm SO not punk rock. the best i've ever come up with on the spot was when an old lady at the gym told me when DD was an infant that i didn't "look old enough to be a mom" and i said "yeah, i've had ALOT of work done" and walked away. usually i'm not nearly so clever.
"You don't look old enough to be a mom." And then I tell them that I have one kid in college and one in high school, and then they really look shocked. Whatever. Just like the abortion thing--it's not really their problem, now, is it?
There are people in this world that conclude abortion to be unacceptable under any circumstances. They have their reasons, just as those who believe it to be acceptable have their reasons.
Waddya know, one of them might just be lurking among you...a cool, non-religious, hard-working single parent who is pro life? Naah, couldn't be.
Glamorous
Memory is a crazy woman that hoards colored rags and throws away food. ~Austin O'Malley
that conclude abortion to be unacceptable under any circumstances."
yep, there sure are. and i'm not one of them.
why are you being defensive about who you are? i *never* categorized anti-choice supporters as "uncool", always religious, or lazy and NOT hardworking. do i disagree 100% with anti-choice sentiment? you bet i do. do i find it hard (if not impossible) to understand why anyone would judge a choice i might make about my own body? fuck yes. do i have much respect for said judgement of my body and my choices? not much, no. but i'm not stupid enough to think that people with different opnions than me only come in one shade ("uncool religious zealots"), and i hope you're not implying that i am.
It seems that my comment was taken as an attack. It was not meant to be an attack, or to be defensive. It was simply meant to point out that not everybody agrees with the concept of abortion being an acceptable option. That doesn't make either side wrong.
it just seemed like you thought i was attacking YOU, and that i was inferring things about what you must be like if you're not in agreement with me.
It doesn't matter if someone finds it "unacceptable under ANY circumstances". Because that is an individual choice, not a public health choice, and not something one can dictate to others. That hard line approach is what leads to laws against abortion in many states and countries in this world. When abortion is made illegal, abortions don't decrease at all, but they become more unsafe. So, 70,000 women die every year, and leave 200,000 orphaned children behind. Source for stats at Guttmacher.org
Saying "pro-life" does not mean being for life, but usually means for making abortion illegal, or thinking you wouldn't choose an abortion if you got pregnant. What it usually means is that you support forcing your views as to what would be an unacceptable health choice for you on others. Which, to me, is unacceptable under any circumstances.
There are many people who strongly think that boys and/or girls should be circumcised, or that no one should accept blood products, or that organs cannot be donated, or vaccines are wrong or destructive, or that midwives are dangerous. Under any circumstances - it is an abomination before their god otherwise, or whatever secular reason they may have. Do they get to make the rules for everyone else in the majority, even if it jeopardizes lives?
No.
Sunflower the unflower
at the assumptions made here.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
but what sunflower is saying is that this is one case where an opinion should be just that-- an OPINION. not a law, not a matter of public interest, not a way of forcing others to comply with your own personal beliefs, but a private opinion and choice.
you didn't mention how you feel about the legality issues concerning abortion, but i can see why sunflower is assuming that if you think abortion is wrong "under any circumstances" then you must be anti-choice and therefore not in support of abortion rights, which would make you... in support of it being illegal. yes, it could be untrue that you feel that way, but i'm guessing that if you believe that even though it's something you would never personally choose you still do support others' right to choose, then you would have just said that??
just to make this an open conversation where there's no miscommunication, what do you actually feel is being wrongly assumed about you?
What I said was that there are people who believe abortion to be unacceptable under any circumstances, that they are entitled to their belief, and that believing so does not make them 'wrong'.
I also mentioned that there may be some among us who believe so, but are not the stereotypical, judgemental, bible-thumper.
What was assumed is that I was describing myself. That is not the case.
I wanted to open the arena for hearing other views. Looks like that wasn't the best of ideas. Sorry, all.
there's no reason to apologize for putting a thought out there, at all. i'm going to go out on a limb here though and say that i think the phrasing of your original statement was a little off, and i'm wondering why if you felt like you were being misunderstood you didn't clear it up sooner?? i appreciate that you intended to stick up for the "underdog" in this situation, but the way you put your obtuse statement out there had a sharp edge of defensiveness to it. i don't think you need to worry about the mamas here needing the arena "opened" for them; they tend to be a pretty fearless bunch when it comes to sharing ideas!
and again, i never put out any stereotypes about people with anti-choice beliefs. NONE. *you* put out the ideas about stereotypical "bible-thumpers" as you said (and contrasted it with "hardworking" single mamas, which still confuses me a little!), and i'm still baffled as to why you went there? it implies that i've been prejudiced, and i know that i haven't, at all, and nor has anyone else who has contributed to the conversation here.
i'm always up for some impassioned debate, but it's much easier to engage in an open conversation about these things when we're all clear about what we're saying. obtuse statements are really tough to translate through a screen, and i hope you don't fault me (or anyone else) for making an honest mistake about what you were saying.
i'm so glad you PMed me and that i realize now what you were originally referring to... thanks for talking to me about it, and i apologize for my part in the misunderstanding!
your point was clear from your first comment on it, imo.
That was beautiful.
"Overcome the angry by non-anger; overcome the wicked by goodness; overcome the miser by generosity; overcome the liar by truth." -Buddha
You're right, people are not wrong in their opinions. In fact, I just finished telling my students that opinions are never wrong because you can't be wrong in what you believe. What's wrong is when people who hold a particular opinion choose to actively push that opinion off onto other people. I'm not saying that all pro-lifers do that, because certainly not all of them do. But the loud ones do it all of the time. It's one thing to be anti-abortion for yourself and make that choice for yourself. But to trying to force that opinion onto others and force that choice onto others through legislation is wrong.
I don't care if someone is pro-life or pro-choice. It's not my business. I just don't want to be told that my opinion is wrong.
(And for the record, Glamourous, I got what you meant. I hope you don't see my reply as attacking you. It's just a reply to a comment.)
So I hear your frustration, and I am definately the kind of person who will do a personal boycott on a store just because someone working there has made even one comment that offends,insults or even just bothers me. I actually have to walk an extra 15 minutes and pay a little more to buy my hippy stuff because the snotty owner had the audacity to ask me ¨do you even KNOW what buckwheat IS?¨ in a disdainful tone.
I'm responding to that part of your post because i am too brainfogged and snotlogged to communicate intelligently about having difficult abortion dialogues.
I'm really happy that you're feeling so positive about your job interview and i hope you really got the job, because i know you'll knock that job's socks off.
Tigerfish Mama
big hugs to you, motor. i know you're feeling a little less-than-ideal lately, but i'm so happy every time i see you post or comment here! are you having sinus issues again?? my fucking sinuses have felt close to exploding for the last few days, and i didnt even use the neti pot for alot of it because both sides of my nose were COMPLETELY blocked with zero air (and therefore water, i'm assuming) able to get through. mouth-breathing makes me feel stabby.
and DO you even know what buckwheat is? 
ETA: duh, i just read your new post and saw that you're in head cold hell right now. breathing vibes to you!!
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"If outlining our demographics was all we needed to do, it would make this whole thing much simpler!" exactly!
thanks for sharing your perspective, MG. it's wonderful to hear that some people coming from an anti-choice POV can have their minds and hearts opened by experience, whether their own or someone else's. you're so lucky that you had someone to guide you through what must have been a very confusing experience; that's exactly why women's health issues are something i've always held near and dear to my heart, and why i'm so excited about this job opportunity.
it's also why i got my panties in a twist over this woman's lack of respect for people's choices. if i get this job i'm going to be dealing with an anti-choice point of view alot, i know, and i need to be able to not take it personally. lunarmama's totally right about that; i felt really defensive about this woman's response because i felt like she was taking away from my excitement about this new opportunity, but i realize that this woman probably didn't mean anything personal by her lack of sensitivity (and yeah, stupidity). she did kind of shit on my parade a little, but i dont think she even realized it. not that it excuses it because it was ignorant, but like i said.....i need to not take it personally. i'm going to have to separate myself from these issues, because they aren't about me.
at the interview we discussed the security measures in effect at the sites i would be working at, and how they handle picketers and protesters. it's not something i'm looking forward to because protesters bullying young women into feeling bad about their choices piss me right the fuck off, but this will be a great opportunity for me to grow and separate myself from the ignorance and lack of respect for others that so many people in this world have. i can't change every mind, and although i wish i could....damn do i wish i could!.... i've got to learn to let some of it go.