On Being An Introvert, Social Anxiety, Shyness et al
I'm an introvert and a very shy person. On top of that I have flares of social anxiety. This last flare-up was combined with depression and was really bad, now that I'm out of the worst of it I would say it was a mini-nervous breakdown. Anyway! The thread on playdates bought of lots of talk about being an introvert and social interaction and stuff. A good point sebsmom made was how people who are not introverts don't understand that it's not a choice, it's simply the way we are naturally wired.
I have this great book on personality development I'll have to look for, it really went into detail on the major differences between extroverts and introverts and it explained something about myself that seemed/seems to baffle most extroverts: Why I like to spend lots of time alone, why I crave peace and quiet, why I tend to prefer low-key socializing over boisterous parties, and stuff like that. It's because introverts are naturally high energy and naturally have nerves set on edge and on the excitement high point, so even just being around other people can be too much and overwhelming for our nerves let alone loud situations. Whereas extroverts tend to be low energy and to have nerves set on the low point, so they naturally tend to seek excitement outside themselves; to like being around other people, loud exciting parties, going vibrant places, being in a large crowd. I thought this was very interesting.
I don't mind being an introvert but I do wish other people didn't take it personally...for example at schools and jobs and stuff, wanting to just sit quietly and read a book or go for a walk alone or even sit in my car (because the lunch/break room was just too noisy) is generally taken as signs of standoffish behavior by extroverts. I suppose it doesn't help that my outside doesn't match my inside; for some reason people tend to expect me to be all loud and outgoing and the life of the party or something. Often folks don't believe I am shy and just keep at me and at me to be this extroverted person they've decided I am. That is very annoying and even quite a bit scary sometimes.
Another good point sebsmom made was that while many introverts have social anxiety it's not always the case nor is the reverse true, that every person with social anxiety is an introvert. but yah I'd like to talk about ways in which we deal with this if you do have social anxiety. In addition to therapy I take St. John's Wort and 5-htp, both OTC supplements you can buy online or at most drug stores in the states.
some things to think on/talk about if you're an introvert:
How do you meet new people?
Is your SO/ex SO an introvert?
Are your kids introverted?
Do you also have social anxiety?
Do you consider yourself to be shy also?
What helps you; how do you deal?
How do you feel when people you don't know talk to you?
How do you behave at parties?
Do you have close friends?
Is meeting/making new friends something you want to do?
How often do you socialize?
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Yeah, I was going to wade into that discussion but then there was too much! I was a little overwhelmed!!! hahaha
It's funny. I am an introvert, definitely. In terms of the definition that I 'recharge' by being by myself. I like reading, doing stuff on my own or with my husband & baby.
I'm not *particularly* shy in that I'm fairly comfortable in talking to people I don't know, as long as it is in a small group and I can make eye contact and there aren't a lot of distractions. Once I get to know you--- I will talk your freakin' ear off!!!
BUT I do suffer some social anxiety- walking into a room full of a BUNCH of people I don't know is really hard for me! This is a problem for me now that I am a mami. Cos the friends I already have don't have kids. And I feel the need for a mama/parent community. There's a fairly good, in other words, developed alternative-y, attachment parent community here in the Twin Cities and even a place to meet up and a number of playgroups. But I have to force myself to go. And I often come home and cry cos no one talked to me and I didn't do a good enough job talking to a bunch of people who already seem to know each other. But there is still definitely a tension between wanting mama/parent friends and feeling like I don't want any more friends.
I tend to be very close to a very few number of people- I've never done the whole lots of acquaintances/casual friends thing.
I deal with it...um...I dunno. I guess I don't deal with it/do anything to help. I'm thinking about taking some herbal stuff but I have to think about it, talk to my naturopath, etc.
I dislike parties with an intensity, unless I already know most of the people there (like my wedding! LOL!). I will only talk to people I know. Most often my husband or best friend if they are there. I get all stressed just thinking about parties.
Find ecstasy in life; the mere sense of living is joy enough. -- Emily Dickinson
You want to do what you think is right and what matters to you, and if other people don't like it, as my father would have said, they can go fuck themselves. -- Amy Bloom
Oh, and my SO-- he's an extrovert and shy. According to him.
Good idea, thanks!
I was the first in my gaggle of friends to have a kid, and it was pretty lonely for a while. Oddly enough I didn't start to meet other mamas in my area until I had my younger one. Unlike my oldest, he liked being in the stroller, and I could walk around the neighborhood with him. It was amazing how many mamas came out of the woodwork when they saw me walking with the baby. So funny the little things that change your world.
One of my closer mama friends now lives down the street from me, and I remember hearing her kid screaming his head off in the middle of the night in the summer when we had our windows open, and I'd be up too, nursing my son. And I'd wonder what she was like, sitting there in the middle of the night all lonely. One day my kid saw hers across the street and started chatting him up, and that is how we became friends.
I'm not sure what the point of this rambling is...maybe that the moms' groups never worked for me either, but random encounters did.
How do you meet new people?- I can talk to people in small groups (2-3 others) or one on one. If I'm at the neighbourhood playground I might ask "so, do you live around here?" or how old someone's kids are.
Are your kids introverted? I believe so.
Do you also have social anxiety? I used to but it's not so bad now.
Do you consider yourself to be shy also? Yes, but not as much as I used to be.
What helps you; how do you deal? I gave myself bravery lessons a few years ago where if I was too nervous to do something I'd pretend I was brave and do it anyway. I also give myself downtime and don't overschedule things as I get frazzled easily and need quiet time to regroup. I stay in hotels when I can when visiting people instead of at their homes. I carry a book.
How do you feel when people you don't know talk to you? Sometimes alarmed, especially if what they've said doesn't make sense to me at first and I feel anxious and insecure. Sometimes I don't mind, talking to someone can help time pass by more quickly when you are waiting around sometimes. I'm also reassured by the knowledge that most people are friendly, and cheered up by a friendly social interaction.
How do you behave at parties? Akwardly. I hate parties. I always thought it was because I was too ____ (shy, overweight, clumsy, whatever I was feeling insecure about at the time), but I am realizing now they are just not. for. me. Even if I'm feeling content and happy with everything in my life a party is an obligation for me to get through. Ugh, parties.
Do you have close friends? Yes! I need friends, they contribute a lot to my mental health.
Is meeting/making new friends something you want to do? Occasionally but not often. I tend to have a close group of friends and then I don't really feel like I need more. Sometimes it's hard enough to find time to spend with the friends I do have, schedule-wise.
How often do you socialize? Hmmm, hard to say.. I have acquaintances and coworkers I chat with every couple of days, but I usually try to spend time with friends a couple of times a month at least.
I once heard that you can tell if you are an introvert or an extrovert from this kind of scenario: You come home from a long day at work and you are exhausted. The phone rings and it's friends who have gotten together and want you to go out with them. Do you think "yeah! Be right there!" (extrovert) or "oh no, I just want to stay home!" (introvert).
I've heard of similar theories of introversion vs extroversion and the energy you talked about. What recharges an extrovert can overwhelm an introvert. I've also had people assume I was stuck up when I was shy as well.
What interests me is that I've heard that in some cultures calling someone shy is considered a compliment and here it is sometimes considered more of a difficulty.
I kind of like being an introvert. I think it's a good thing to be content to be alone at times.
Looking forward to this discussion.
How do you meet new people?
Usually through mutual friends or acquaintances. In this case I do much better meeting one or two new people at a time. If it's a larger group of people at once - especially if they all know each other already - that's really stressful for me. Sometimes, depending on the person, even hanging out with a friend and one other friend of theirs stresses me out. For whatever reason I find some people super intimidating while others I just "click" with right away.
I think there's a few categories that most new people I meet fall into: Intimidating- these tend to be people who I perceive as being elitist in some way; like anyone who thinks they're too cool for school. It's not that I have any interest in being cool or accepted by those people but when I'm around folks like this I feel like I'm being sized up to see if I'm sufficiently hip to even talk to. And it's ridiculous because I really DON'T care (at least not consciously) for their approval. In fact, I know that by not talking (which is what I do when faced with this kind of person) I will automatically be dismissed as them as uncool/boring/whatever. I think it's 'cuz I'm so sensitive. I've been in situations where I have put myself out there with these kind of people- tried to relax as best as possible and just be myself and have ended up feeling ridiculed or something. As much as I'm not interested in meeting some dumb superficial standards it feels like total crap when you're talking and trying to be yourself and people regard you as a wierdo or a loser. I'm sure a lot of this is also pent up stuff from adolescence. From around 5th through 8th grade I had a lot of really shitty "friends". They were groups of girls who would CRUCIFY anyone for saying or doing the wrong thing - particularly me because I think I made an easy target. I wanted friends so bad that I would apologize to these girls for getting mad at them after they had teased me mercilessly about something or other. The sad part is that I just thought that's what friendship was until I got to high school and actually made some true friends. To be fair, sometimes people I find intimidating initially are not nearly the elitist assholes I imagined them to be in my head. I know that there are times that I unfairly make this kind of assumption about someone.
Next are people I just feel awkward around. I'm not intimidated by them but I really suck at small talk - especially if it's with another introvert who sucks at it just as much. I put all the pressure of carrying on a conversation on myself and get super stressed out. With these people I will go into an almost panic if, for instance, I saw them on a bus or something. If they're a friend of a friend or whatever I will feel like I should say hi because I don't want to feel rude but then I know I'm going to be subjecting myself to an excruciatingly awkward few minutes (at least) where we will stand around with nothing to say. I've seriously turned around and walked the other way on the street or ducked into a store if I spot on of these people that I sort of know. To people who don't have these issues I'm sure it would seem like I'm being an asshole for doing that but I really just hate awkwardness THAT much. This sort of thing isn't nearly as much of a problem with the intimidating folks since I usually assume that they won't notice me or really care if I say hello or not.
Finally there's the rare people who I have a natural rapport with. I am just naturally and almost completely at ease with them from the beginning. I can't fully explain what it is about these people that makes it so much easier with them than everyone else.
Is your SO/ex SO an introvert?
NO WAY. BD is one of the most extroverted people I have ever met in my entire life. I think it was part of his appeal for me. This extroversion is definitely part of what made him one of those people who I was immediately at ease with. He's very good at engaging with almost anyone. It's one of his best qualities (not that extroverted = good or better than introverted but in BD's case he genuinely likes most people and makes it apparent he likes you from the moment you meet him).
Are your kids introverted?
I think it's too early to tell. Sebastian only just turned 3. Sometimes we'll be out at the store and he can't stop saying hi and trying to chat it up with strangers. And lately this is especially true with kids. He will often want to approach other kids and talk to them. At times he seems super extroverted like his dad - like we'll be at the park and he'll go up to a kid or group of kids, spread his arms out wide and triumphantly exclaim "I'm SEBASTIAN!!!" as way of introduction. I LOVE this. On the other hand, sometimes he will ask me to take him over to talk to another kid and when I do so he gets all shy. He's excited to meet the kid, you can tell, but he'll sort of be hiding behind me for at least the first couple of minutes. So yeah... I don't know yet.
Do you also have social anxiety?
Bigtime. See above long ass answer to how I meet people. I think social anxiety is one of those disorders that a lot of people who don't suffer from it think is bullshit, like ADHD or OCD. Partially because all of these are over-diagnosed and over-used by people in describing themselves. BD had OCD really bad so I know what the real deal looks like - I also know quite a few people who will say things like they are "totally OCD" and believe that because they do some quirky things or like to have things arranged in a certain way. I'll always want to say, "yeah, I'm sure you get pretty annoyed when things are out of place but if a fork falls on the floor is it going to cause you to have a complete meltdown where you have to wash your hands for 40 minutes after picking it up? THAT is OCD. You're just anal and a little neurotic." (I don't think I've ever said this out loud though)
It is similar with social anxiety. I've heard a lot of people say they suffer from this because maybe they don't like crowded bars or parties. Lots of times it's introverted folks who believe that social anxiety is a general description for introversion. But they're totally different. Social anxiety can be an almost crippling problem wheras introversion is just a personality trait. I know introverted people who have no problem talking to anyone but they are just more introspective and prefer much of the time to be alone as opposed to extroverts who, more often than not, crave company - the more the better. It IS possible to be considered outgoing and also be an introvert.
Do you consider yourself to be shy also?
Yup. And yes, I think this is distinct from being an introvert and while I'd say all people who suffer from social anxiety are shy, not all shy people have social anxiety.
What helps you; how do you deal?
I used to deal with this with alcohol. Any time I was thrown into a social situation with people I didn't know (to the extent it was possible/appropriate to drink) I would get PLASTERED. For a while when I was in college I would say I was borderline alcoholic. Obviously that's not the best approach. I rarely drink these days... I don't know... I guess I deal by CONSTANTLY telling myself that my fears are irrational and that it's not the end of the world if I can't connect with certain people. I try to accept it about myself the best I can but it's hard. This is especially difficult at work. I will do almost anything to avoid having to talk to someone on the phone rather than send an e-mail. Usually this is okay but sometimes I NEED to actually speak to a person and I will put it off for way too long. Or fear of approaching my boss or a co-worker to ask a question has led me to make stupid mistakes that could have been avoided. I've often thought about going on meds but I'm already on zoloft for anxiety/depression (which helps with general anxiety but not really the social aspect) and adderall for ADHD (which I also totally legitimately suffer from). I don't want to go too crazy with the psych meds. And funnily enough it's my social anxiety that prevents me from asking my psyciatrist if he thinks I could benefit from a different anti-anxiety/depression med that will also help with the social anxiety. I WANT to broach the subject with him but can never make myself do so.
How do you feel when people you don't know talk to you?
It depends on the person and the mood I'm in - my internal response varies widely based on these and other factors and I've already gone on way too long!
How do you behave at parties?
I'll usually try to stay as close as possible to any friends I have there. It's much easier for me to be social with a friend there as a sort of support. Whenever I've gone to parties as the guest of someone who is the only person there I know I need to make a real conscious effort not to stick desperately like glue to that person for the night but it's hard and I can't always help it. I've been in situations where I've gone into a near panic because my party companion has to go to the bathroom and I'm forced to be on my own for a few minutes. In college, as I said above, I would deal with this by getting SUPER drunk to allow myself to talk to people. And yeah, I still sometimes use alcohol as a social crutch, to a lesser extent.
Do you have close friends?
Yes, I am fortunate enough to actually have quite a few close friends. Unfortunately lots of them live far away and/or are very busy so I don't see any of them very often.
Is meeting/making new friends something you want to do?
Yes, totally. I've never had a desire to have a TON of friends. BD thrives on this. Friends are constantly entering and exiting his life... I don't want that. I get too attached to people. At the same time I can't remember ever not being open to forming new friendships and at this point in my life it's something I sometimes actively crave since I can't see so many of my existing friends on any kind of regular basis (like, more than once or twice a month).
How often do you socialize?
Almost never. At work, sometimes. But there's lots of days that I'm chained to my desk all day and the only person I have any extended interaction with all day will be Sebastian. Sometimes that really gets to me but at the same time I will do things like avoid going into the kitchen at work when I hear that there are people in there because I just don't have the energy to have to interact with anyone.
OMG... sorry for my super long answer everyone!! Obviously it's a topic I have a lot of thoughts about.
I ask because really, truly, I used to be painfully shy. My high school yearbook is full of "if only we'd talked more..." and such. But then, at 22, I started work teaching English composition classes as part of my grad school program and it occurred to me that the students would eat me alive if I didn't come out of my shell a bit. It wasn't a conscious decision but I'm 37 now and you wouldn't recognize me as a Former Introvert. On the inside, I still think of myself that way, but I'm not. I can go to a party alone, talk to strangers, have dinner parties, make acquaintences at work and have lately tried befriending my new neighbors. However, since I think I've seen both sides, I wanted to chime in:
My SO is a TOTAL introvert. I talk to his friends and family more than he does.
So far, I think our son is an introvert. He has to be reallllly secure in a situation before he relaxes and lets go. Crowds freak him out and he doesn't warm up to strangers (kids or adults) very easily. Luckily, I was a shy kid so I think I can recognize it and not judge him or try to reform him, As you say, introverts are just wired that way.
I will say that motherhood has taken a toll on my close friend circle. Haven't kept alot of them and don't feel like I have many of them. Working on it.
Minimal social anxiety...I tend to barge in and find common ground or make small talk pretty quickly. Small talk is a godsend, particularly at social gatherings or in annoying checkout lines.
I'm generally happy when strangers speak to me and I, occasionally, will speak to strangers.
There. Hope the perspective helps. Great topic!
How do you meet new people?
I usually meet new people through friends, through work or occasionally by chatting them up in the neighborhood.
Is your SO/ex SO an introvert?
My DH is a huge extrovert. He is usually the loudest one in the room.
Are your kids introverted?
No, both are already acting like big old extroverts.
Do you also have social anxiety?
Occasionally, in certain situations. I don't like being thrust into situations where I have to relate to total strangers. For instance, in my line of work I have to interview people, and I don't like doing that at all. I also dislike going to the playground. Over the years, I've discovered two main stressors for me:
1) Opening myself up to new people on a personal level. Growing up, I had terrible issues with boundaries and letting people walk all over me, use me, disrespect me, etc. It's taken years of work to learn how to assert myself, and learn how to weed out the people who aren't going to contribute anything positive to my life. I don't mean this in a snotty way or a cliquey way, but more in terms of self-preservation. I like to think I've gotten pretty good at it, at this point, though it doesn't come easy. For this reason, I am more cautious than I used to be when it comes to making new friends. Now I will take my time and really get to know someone before I get too involved. This has helped me to create a lot of good, solid friendships at this point in my life.
2) Getting to know new parents. I am still struggling with this one because I tend to find myself obsessing over things whenever I socialize with other parents. I end up worrying so much about whether the kids are getting along, are my kids being polite enough, are they judging the food that I'm offering, etc. that I can't relax and be in the moment as much as I'd like. Then there is the fear that my kid will love their kid, but I won't end up having anything in common with the parents, and we'll be roped into events that will take me away from other people. So I try not to over-commit when I meet people and they want to schedule things right away.
The other issue is that I am really protective of my "alone" time. I need it to recharge. When I'm in a group, I'm "on", but I need time to be "off" too. This is why I am careful about scattering my energies too much, because these days I tend to get burnt out very quickly, and then I am no good to anybody.
Do you consider yourself to be shy also?
No. I used to be, as a child, but now I am perfectly capable of walking up to people I don't know and talking to them.
What helps you; how do you deal?
I generally keep the conversation neutral, or try to focus on something we have in common. I will also try to crack a joke or two to break the ice.
How do you feel when people you don't know talk to you?
Usually fine, unless I get some sort of bad vibe. I have always been a psycho magnet.
How do you behave at parties?
I won't just talk to my friends, I will pretty much chat with whomever is around. I like parties.
Do you have close friends?
Yes. And I invest a lot of time and energy into those friendships.
Is meeting/making new friends something you want to do?
It's not a huge priority in my life right now, but I'm open to it. If I meet someone and I like her/him, then I'll pursue it. I feel like I have a good balance in my world right now between time for friends and time for myself and my family.
How often do you socialize? I almost always see people on the weekends, and usually meet up with one to do something once during the week.
It's funny because my friends are a mix of introverts and extroverts, and I find myself adjusting depending upon whom I'm with. I am the chatty one with my quieter friends, and the quieter one with my super-social friends.
Sometimes if I'm standing next to someone I'll make a comment or start a conversation, or sometimes someone will do it to me. It also depends on the mood I'm in...when I'm tired (which I almost always am with two little boys) I tend to zone out and be a lot quieter.
The boundary thing is interesting. I have another friend who is a psycho magnet like me, and when we're together, it's like double the strength. The WEIRDEST people come up to us. One time we were in line in J*mba Juice and this icky guy came over and offered to "heal" us. He was like: "I can just tell you girls have neck pain. Let me rub your necks." Stuff like this happens to me all of the time. I have also been stalked on several occasions. In retrospect, I think I used to be too meek/nice/quiet to tell people in a clear, firm way to leave me alone, and maybe they picked up on that. In general I have a really hard time with confrontation of any kind...but I'm working on that.
I read some similar advice awhile ago- ask people questions, most people will happily talk about themselves. (This sometimes backfires on me, when the person I choose is also shy or has social anxiety ... then there's this awkward silence ... eek!)
The other piece of advice that I read about parties was to get there early in the party. At first I was like, no way! I need to get there when there's lots of people so I can blend in. But I tried it and I have to say it works like a charm. When there's only a few people there it's less overwhelming and people don't already have someone to talk to, necessarily. It's easier to approach people and start talking when they aren't talking to five other people, none of whom you know. I have to remember this advice...
I find it so interesting how you describe your extroverted friends wanting a lot of contact with specific people all the time. I have such an opposite experience. I also have maybe one close friend who's an introvert - the rest are extroverts and most are extremely extroverted. (I have this theory that it's very difficult for introverts to form friendships with other introverts because neither one will drive the conversation to ease things beyond the awkward initial phase of meeting someone new. It often takes an extrovert to bring an introvert out of their shell. At least in my experience).
My problem is that most of my extroverted friends have a TON of other friends besides me. Like I have maybe 12 people who I consider close friends but only 3 of those 12 live close enough to hang out on even a semi-regular basis. My friends, on the other hand, typically have TONS of other friends besides me and lots of folks vying for their time and attention. All of their social calendars are full. The people they see the most are those in their immediate physical vicinity- coworkers, schoolmates, neighbors, etc. So it seems like long periods without contact is a lot less noticible for these friends than it is for me. Plus none of them have kids - for a while after Sebastian was born I'd still get calls inviting me out places that I'd always have to decline. I can't run out to some bar at the drop of a hat. Even if it's something planned ahead it's got to be worth it to call in a favor and find someone to babysit (can't afford to pay anyone and there's only so many times you can ask a family member to watch your kid for free). Eventually the invites stopped coming aside from specific big events like birthdays, weddings, etc.
Lately I often end up feeling like I'm harrassing my friends into hanging out with me. Even if they consider me a closer friend than most, and even though they might miss me, they still have more than enough socializing in their life. And they're used to thinking of me as kind of a loner who they wouldn't see as often as others anyways. But this is sort of new to after becoming a mom. Before that I would still generally end up being the one to contact friends about getting together(instead of the other way around) by default since people would get sick of inviting me out and getting turned down more than half of the time when I just felt like being alone. Instead, when I DID feel like being social I'd call a couple of people to see what they were up to and at least one person would say "I'm going [this place] with [these people] - you should totally come!!" and I would or not depending on what mood I am and what kind of thing was going on. But the option was there. Now a lot of the time I will want people to come to me so that we can chill out after Sebastian goes to bed - that way I don't need to get a sitter and I can still have a nice time and some adult conversation. So I arrange this kind of thing with people once every few months which is really all I can ask from my 20-something, super-extrovert, childless friends. LONG ass point made short, it is always me chasing them and not the other way around.
As far as friends who live far away I MIGHT have a decent length phone conversation with them like, once a year. More than that is too much. I REALLY hate the phone but it is worth it to hear certain people's voices once in a blue moon. Otherwise it's strictly e-mail for me which is crappy because most of my friends are more talkers than writers. I'll write them an e-mail that is like a dissertation it is so long and I'll get a 2-3 line response. For this reason sites like Facebook are really helpful for people like me to help stay connected to certain folks.
Who's done the Myers-Briggs personality test? You've got to pay to take the official test but I did it for free as a part of a couple of different classes in college. It identified me as an INFP and if you read the description it's pretty much me to a Tee. I wish I could go into more detail on this test and what the results/lettering mean but I can't right now... just interested in whether other mamas have taken the test and if so, what your types are.
and scored ENFP. Everybody was shocked by the "E".
hope i don't drain you. i don't think we get to see each other enough to drain each other. i know i always love seeing you and spending time with you. we do need to do that SOON. i am horrible with keeping up with friends too and am surprised when i have any left at the end of the day. I actually find you very gregarious and talkative when we are together!
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I hear you on that, it is hard when you're the only one in your group to have kids. I had my kids so young I was the only mama among my friends for just years and years. It wasn't until I moved to a different neighborhood that had lots of young mothers that I started to have lots of mama friends. Older mothers just refused to engage with me at all. Have you tried any hipmama meetups? the crunchy-alterna type groups in my area were really a bunch of conservatives who breastfed and/or used slings...they weren't really my type of crowd. But meeting local moms through hipmama was great, one of my very best friends I met through here.