Submitted by Henry on Thu, 05/28/2009 - 4:08am
So why don't adults treat them that way?
I have a friend. She's always late to meet me for lunch. Do I:
a)reward her with clapping, praise and a cookie if she's on time, and maybe a sticker and if she gets enough sticker she can have a prize.
b)punish her. If she's late she gets a time out AND doesn't get a cookie after lunch
c)get over it and accept her OR tell her I have a problem with it and then accept that she may or may not change her behavior OR bitch about it to my husband but love her anyway.
And how about my son when he does stuff that is irritating, not totally considerate, but doesn't hurt anyone?
A five year old is in a coffee shop reading a book quietly. She is called "good" by passing adults.
Later the girl gets up and wanders around looking at the artwork (her mom is talking to a friend still) and two adults say she's restless, a third comments on how thoughtful she is to be looking at the art. Later still (she's been in the coffee shop for well over an hour and her mom is still busy)she starts whining to her mom and tugging on her clothes and pouting. Now she's "naughty", "what a brat", "poor thing", and "I would never have a child like that". During this same time period adults in the shop have been quieter, louder, moved around more and faster, been raising their voice at the barista but no one labels any of them.
I am walking down the street with my son and two adults say hello to him. He says hello back. "What a nice little boy" says the second. Later he doesn't highfive a stranger on command and the stranger says he's shy. Then an old woman tells him she's going to get his nose and he looks away. Then she tells him he should come home with her and he says no. "What a mean little boy you are" she says, smiling.
If I walked down the street alone none of these people would likely have interacted with me, but if they did I wouldn't likely have been judged, labeled, teased and then criticized.
People don't get mad at me every time i say no. They don't touch me without asking much. They don't touch my head and face without asking or being close friends. They don't tell me who and how I am upon meeting me once.
Parenting books are so often about how we can change our kids behavior through trickery, manipulation, lies, giving them two options they don't like either of, praising them, threatening them, punishing them. But what about who he is and what he is and who he is becoming and his dreams and ideal? Where do they fit in when it's all about behavior?
He's not a dog. I don't want to use behaviorist techniques to shape his behavior. So that he will do what I want when I tell him to do it. Do I?
He's my equal. I have an enormous amount of power over him because I am his mom, his main squeeze, his one (for now at least). So shouldn't I use my power with thought and care? Shouldn't I be as gentle as I can to guide him where he wants to go? OR was he born bad, and it's my job to reform him. I know him. He was born good and true. So I can respect him, and teach him what will hurt him, and explain how people like to be treated and why. Explain that he shouldn't hit people because it hurts them, not that he shouldn't hit because he will get in trouble. Let his reward for being kind be the kindness and love that people give him for doing it, not making kindness = cookies. Not that cookies are bad. We both love cookies.
If I always tell him what to do and when and how and where, how will he know what to do and when and how and where when I am not there? How will he make good choices later if I make all his choices for him now?
I think he should do mostly what he wants. And mostly he does, and almost every single thing he does is pretty cool. He's four, he's a good person. And sometimes we have conflicts, but are they behavioral problems? Developmental problems? Or do we just not agree and refuse to listen or compromise together?
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wow, what a concept!
anyway, when my kid was between 1 and 6, i had such an easy time with her. and people would compliment me, people would ask who i read and what i did, and suggested that i work with children because i have a "natural" talent for it, once even that i write my own book. i can say without question that the reason i had such an easy time with my daughter was the fact that i empathized, that i understood she was a person with her own separate needs, but that i also had my own. and her dad, and the dog, and the school. for me there was never any conflict between my daughter expressing herself, and also behaving appropriately. i was constantly putting myself in her place and asking myself, what would be confusing to me right now, and THAT would be the explanation i would give to her. it went so smoothly. not because we were all happy all the time, but i had a very clear idea of when she could get what she wanted, and when she would have to fuck off and wait, just like you and i have to sometimes. and i was quite comfortable asserting my authority when it was necessary. consequently, it wasn't necessary all that much.
oh, and let's not forget she's an only child. that's big. no tightly-run schedule accommodating mom dad and siblings.
i can also say without question that it's a whole different game with a ten year old. my kid is so independent minded, she demands explanations for EVERYTHING. and now she demands that she agree with those explanations. it's at these times i have to explain to her that she's not in charge, and things can happen without her agreement. consequently, there are more power struggles now than when she was three.
it's a whole different animal. and my daughter knows in the pit of her heart that she is not in control, she does not have the judgment to run her own life. and she NEEDS me to be in control. she needs me to fight with her over her personal hygiene, when she can be on the computer, when she does her homework etc. when she has bouts of needing a stronger disciplinary approach, she responds by spending more time with me, asking to read or sew together. which, of course i do, happily.
but it's different because when she was three i was so proud of my approach. i would tell people "i have no interest in controlling my child." and it was true at the time. because when she understood what was happening, she was agreeable. but she has grown into more of her own person now and her psychology is way different. i can't just explain what's happening to elicit "good" behavior from her.
on "i'm the mother," frankly, sometimes the real reasons are none of her business. i am comfortable telling her that. and i'm comfortable letting her know that she's not entitled to evaluate my choices at every turn. being the mother means i have to maintain control of everything in her life, including her health care, schooling, feeding, clothing. i do NOT have to submit choices regarding computer time (etc) for her approval. because she is TEN. she'd have pizza for every meal if she made her own choices.
you know, for some reason this is reminding me of an article i read on NYT today, about the boom in books on "parenting," and how only in the last fifteen years that's become a verb.
i have always had a huge problem with parenting books. how can your parenting come from someone else? and if you're just reading for perspective, insights to not necessarily adopt but to consider and inform your own choices.... how many would you have to read to cover everything? it's just--
SO-
UNBELIEVABLY-
STUPID
to me to read parenting books, much less adopt one ideology and follow it like some kind of adherent.
i'm all for learning about child development and using that to inform how you communicate but following a program is something i can't grasp.
conversely, i also don't get all the "judgment" that's hurled around regarding parenting. i couldn't parent your kid, nor you mine. so what the hell, with all this judgment? (not from you or anyone on this thread, in general) if you really think there is a "right" way to parent every child, you're probably going to be miserable once your child gets old enough to cause some damage by asserting THEIR will. because tantrums at two and three.... that's the EASY shit. oh what i wouldn't give right now to have to deal with tantrums.
"the explosive powder he was hiding in his underwear failed to detonate"
come out
yes, I do agree then...
I'm completely with you. Kids are little people that deserve respect and consideration as much as any adult.
I guess this reminded me of a few dear friends who had the best intentions but went completely overboard with giving their kids way more power and control than was appropriate. Then around age 10 or 12 they realized they had created a monster (their words).
Also, I would never expect perfect self control or tons of patience from a young child while their Mom or Dad talks to a friend. It's just not realistic. But I do think it's okay to teach kids that other people have rights and feeling too. It's not okay to yell and scream and run amok because it bothers other people. And parents don't owe their kids a justification or rationalization of what they are asking every timed. Sometimes "Because I'm your Mom and I said so" has to be enough.
I try to strike a balance in my parenting style. Between a heavy-handed authoritarian style and what I have seen as an very permissive, extremely child-centric approach. Seems that we have gone, in the last 50 years or so, from one extreme to the other. From the days when children were to be seen but not heard, whipped soundly just to remind them of 'their place', to an era where kids have become rediculously spoiled and catered to. Is this the 'self-esteem' movement on a runaway train? Has anyone else thought this?
Okay, my thinking out loud is starting to ramble so I'll stop here.
Oh and I did want to agree that Henry's little guy is truly blessed to have such a patient and thoughtful Mama.
"Because I'm the mom and I said so"
I've never said this! I always give my kid a reason as to why I'm asking him to do something. I do this because I want him to know that there is a purpose to the tasks I'm setting him on, and it's not just for my own amusement or because I want to feel powerful (I'm not accusing you of doing this, but I've seen parents on power trips before). For example, tonight we were at a movie, and my son was super wiggly. I said "I need you to sit still in your seat because being wiggly is distracting to the other people watching the movie." The other day I asked him to put the dishes away from the dishwasher. He actually said "no thank you" to me! But instead of just forcing him to do it or putting my foot down because I'm the mom, I said "I need you to put the dishes away because we all live here, we all use the dishes, so we all take turns putting them away. Thank you for being helpful." That's close to word-for-word. He put them away without arguing after that. I find that the "because I'm the mom" reason brings on arguments that are unnecessary and unproductive. Anyway, I know what I just wrote sounded really critical of you! Different moms do different things, I just wanted to put in my two cents in case maybe someone here hadn't thought about it like that before and to raise my hand as one of those moms that always gives her kid a reason.
"Feminists are just women who don't want to be treated like shit." -Su.
If you've never had to pull
If you've never had to pull "Because I'm the mom and I say so" then you must be extraordinarily patient or your kid must be good at accepting your reasoning. I always try to explain to my son why I am telling him to do something but when he KEEPS going with the "why?'s" there's a point at which I really just can't take it anymore. "Sebastian, please pick up that cereal you just spilled." "No thanks" (he does this too *cute*... but still
).
"You have to pick them up."
"But why mama?"
"Because sweetie - you threw them on the ground when I asked you not to and now you made a big mess. You can't just leave it there."
"Why?" "
Because we can't leave food on the floor. If we do we'll get bugs and mice. Do you want to have bugs in the house?"
"Yeah."
"Well I don't"
"Why?"
"Because bugs belong outside. They are dirty and I don't want them in the house."
"Why?"
"Just because Sebastian. Now please pick up the cereal."
"Don't want to pick it up."
"Then I'm going to turn your movie off."
"No! Don't turn da movie off!"
"Then pick up the cereal."
"No pick up the cereal!"
"Yes - or no movie."
"WHY mama??"
"Because this is a big mess that YOU made and you need to clean it up."
"Why?"
"You know what? It doesn't matter why. I already told you and I think you know why but I'm your mama and I said to do it so that's the end of the story."
And lots of times after he won't listen to me and I either take something away from him or put him on a time out, I sit him down and tell him that I promise that I always have a good reason for everything that I ask him to do and that even if he doesn't always understand what that is he needs to trust that I want what's best for him and if I've told him to do (or not to do) something that I have a good reason. So sometimes just the fact that I said so will have to be enough.
I don't think that's teaching him never to question authority. It's teaching him that he has to trust me and listen to me. And I think that's important for his safety. I need for him to listen when I say "STOP!", "Don't touch that!!", "Get down", "Don't go in the street!", etc. Otherwise, if he chooses one of those moments to rebel and ignore my instruction he could get severely hurt. There are times when there's no time to explain why you're issuing an order. If for no other reason, I want my son to know that I am the boss and that he pretty much always has to listen to me for those moments when listening to me will keep him safe.
Oh... okay! Yeah, I'm pretty
Oh... okay! Yeah, I'm pretty patient, but I also don't put up with the "why why why"'s. You didn't ask for my input in this, but I'm a big mouth. Tell me to shut up if you want. I would have used the bugs and mice reason too, but never asked him if that question. I'd have said "it invites bugs and mice and we don't want them in our house because they'll make us sick." If he comes at me with more why's then I'd probably say something like "maybe you don't know how to do it, let me help you." But I won't help! I'll SUPERVISE! Pick up that piece of cereal. Good, now pick up that piece of cereal. This is taking a long time do you know where the broom and dustpan are? Etc. I know, that sounds really passive-aggressive. But I gave him the reason and he still didn't do it. ALSO, I tend to say things like "I've already given you my reason, why are you still asking?" I don't know. I've been working with kids for a long long time, not just my kid. And this is how it's always been done, and it's ALWAYS worked for me regardless of what the kids are used to at home. So I'm not just blowing smoke up your guys' asses! I swear to you! Reasons are the bomb!
"Feminists are just women who don't want to be treated like shit." -Su.
I agree that it's always
I agree that it's always preferrable to give a kid reasons but I'm just sayin that I also think it's important that for young kids - kids too young to assess the danger of certain situations - for them to learn that they have to listen to their parent(
regardless of the reason and whether they like it or not. I don't think this instills a lifelong deference to authority in kids but yeah, to a certain age for their own safety I think kids should learn that they need to "obey" (for lack of a better word) the person who is in charge of caring for them at any given moment. As they get older and know the basics of safety, etc. you can start teaching them that it's ok to question authority and what someone might be ordering them to do or not to do.
YES! exactly... everything you just said!
That's exactly what I've been meaning to say! Thank you. =)
If it were a perfect world, or at least I had either a) a little help from another adult in this parenting gig or b) a heck of alot more time in the day... then yes, oceans of patience and all the time in the world providing reasons, explanations, etc. would be more of an option. But I'm doing this solo, full time job, two kids, two dogs and household to take care of.
Frankly, I'm stretched beyond limits in the time and energy departments. Only so many hours and so much physical, mental and emotional energy in one Mom, kwim???
And anyway, as they grow up and get out on their own a little bit, the rest of the world isn;t going to slow down and cater to them as they might be used to. Culture shock!
Okay, I am NOT here to tell
Okay, I am NOT here to tell other moms what to do with their kids. You do what you want. You use the "because I'm a mom" reason if you want and if that's really what works for you. But I've spent reply after reply defending myself because I'm a mom that always gives a reason. I keep getting told by moms on here that this is not okay to do, but I'm here with a very well behaved seven year old so I think I'm doing it right! You can't just make a blanket statement and say "sometimes kids need this" and "sometimes kids need that" because you don't know what every kid needs! Like I said before, I've been working with children for a long time and I have a child of my own, and this is how I've always done it. It works for me! If it doesn't work for you, whatever! But I'm sick and tired of defending my parenting skills on here. Thanks.
"Feminists are just women who don't want to be treated like shit." -Su.
Whoa!
I totally was not trying to attack your parenting skills. Sorry if that's what you got from what I was saying. I think I got a little defensive and detected a hint of holier-than-thou air to you saying that you always give a reason. So I reacted accordingly. I didn't think you were trying to tell anyone what to do but it did SEEM like you were saying that you are better for not having to resort to using "because I said so" or something of the sort.
So I was just trying to say "Hey, don't hate on moms who use that phrase - I think it's necessary". Good on you if it's not necessary for you and your kid. Seriously. I never meant to imply otherwise.
No no no, I don't think I'm
No no no, I don't think I'm better than anyone. And it's not just you. I'm not going to go through and find the other comments that made me feel this way, and there was a link to an article too or something. And to be quite honest, and I apologize for bringing my real life drama here, but if you add all of these comments to the bullshit I'm still putting up with with my family, I've just had it! I'm a Montessori teacher, I truly believe in the Montessori way of doing things, and it works for me, but certain friends, family members, and posters would like to disagree. My response is always that "it works for me". Look at my super awesome kid, for instance! No, I'm not better than anyone else. I just wish that folks would realize that for some parents, the "because I said so" reason isn't necessary. And I've had this same argument over and over with cosleeping, spanking, time outs (we don't do 'em), et cetera. So I guess when I say I'm sick and tired of defending myself, I guess I mean that I'm sick of doing here, and I'm sick of doing it out there too. Sorry! Didn't mean to let my panties crawl up my ass like that!
"Feminists are just women who don't want to be treated like shit." -Su.
Also
Just because "Because I said so" hasn't been necessary for you with your kid or in your experience with other kids doesn't mean that it's never necessary or right. I also have a very well behaved child. Maybe not as well behaved as yours and maybe you think that's because I'm a fascist tyrant who can't reason appropriately with her child instead of just dictating to him but I'm going to have to disagree.
You're not the only one who feels she has to defend her parenting techniques.
I know this is me overreacting but it's my visceral response to what you wrote. I'm feeling a little sensitive today.
I never said you were a
I never said you were a fascist tyrant, or a tyrant of any sort! Don't put words in my mouth. I think what I *just* posted above explains why I'm feeling this way. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to raise their kids here. But what I saw was some criticism for moms like me who always give reasons to their requests, and I decided to stand up for myself. But instead of support, I've gotten more criticism. The blanket statement that "sometimes 'because I said so' has to be good enough" is unfair, because it's not like that for every family! I'm only here to represent moms who raise their kids without it and to prove that there is more than one way to raise a child. I am NOT a better parent than any of you here, my kid is NOT necessarily better behaved and I never claimed he was, and I don't think I have defend my parenting skills any longer.
"Feminists are just women who don't want to be treated like shit." -Su.
Yeah... I'm just having that
Yeah... I'm just having that sort of a day. I know you weren't calling me a tyrant. The way I saw the whole exchange was that someone said that sometimes "because I said so" has to be enough and you chimed in with "not me! I never say that!"
It felt like a few weeks ago when we were discussing finances and I was talking about how fucked my credit is. One of my co-workers said, "Don't worry about it - we've ALL been there" and another co-worker immediately piped in and said, "Um, speak for yourself! I have excellent credit and so does [name of yet another co-worker here]." I felt like saying, "Well la-dee-da. You are SO much better than an irresponsible fuck like me. I acknowledge that you have never been in my low and shameful place - sorry someone implied otherwise." In the case of the co-worker I think her good credit is something she takes a lot of pride in so when she heard "We've all been there" all she heard was someone implying that she's had bad credit and felt the need to clear her name. I don't think she really looks down on people with bad credit.
I think this is kind of similar: I think the statement "Sometimes 'because I said so' has to be enough" is meant as reassurance for moms who say this. Like, "We all do it" kind of thing. Because I think more of us do it than not and for a reason. But since you don't say it and it sounds like you take pride in that you're not looking at it from the perspective of a mom who resorts to this and finds comfort in the fact that most moms do the same.
Oh yeah, well the place I'm
Oh yeah, well the place I'm coming from is the place where I have people (like my family) telling me that kids don't need reasons for anything, that I'm the boss of my kid, and if I don't start acting like it I'm going to have an out-of-control kid. Not my whole family, but at least my aunts think that I'm too lenient with him and that giving my kid reasons for my requests somehow makes me less powerful. So when I read that statement, I was transported to my aunt's living room. Again, I'm very sorry for the misunderstanding and overreacting! And I agree, if you find yourself saying something like "because I said so" or "shut up" or anything else, you should never ever feel guilty. Ever. Because you've gotta do what you gotta do. I just always seem to stop myself before I say that because we're not allowed to say those things to the kids at school so I have an automatic "off" switch with that. Montessori brainwashing
"Feminists are just women who don't want to be treated like shit." -Su.
V, I wasn't criticizing you.
V, I wasn't criticizing you. Yes, I have a different perspective, but that doesn't mean I feel yours is wrong. I felt like you were assuming quite a bit about the way my kids are going to turn out based on me using the one phrase, "because I said so." Quite frankly, I felt judged by you. I was only trying to explain my position/idea/thoughts, I in no way made any assumptions about how your kids are going to turn out, what kind of mom you are, how your kids are now. I wouldn't presume to know any of that. I'm sorry you felt attacked and defensive over my perspective, it wasn't my intention to upset you. I thought we were having an on-line conversation - I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just sharing my perspective. Personally, I never feel the need to defend my parenting ideas, but I do like to talk about them with people who want to talk about them, and I like to hear how other people look at parenting even when it's different than the way I do.
Yes, I realize now that I
Yes, I realize now that I completely overreacted. I've already pm'd one apology. If anyone else feels they need one I'm more than happy to oblige, because I really think we need to support each other. I'm sorry if you felt judged by me. I wasn't judging. I was defending myself because I felt judged. But this isn't the first time I've been misunderstood, and in the future I plan to be more careful about the words I use when I respond to posts. I think if anyone knows me or has been reading my blogs, you'd know I'm the least judgmental person there is.
"Feminists are just women who don't want to be treated like shit." -Su.
yeah, i was a little
yeah, i was a little surprised at how strong you came on. i really wasn't arguing or criticizing you. just sharing. sometimes when i feel judged, i judge back with the mindset that i'm defending my position. its tricky to not do that! so if i came off that way, i'm sorry too.
i do get your position and love the way you look at/dole out parenting.
okay, I propose a group hug!
Honestly, everything I've read from all of you posting on this thread lead me to believe I would like all of you very much in person. Of course we have some differences of oppinion because all of our babes are different and so are we and our responses to our kids.
I respect any mama who does all things for her kids with their best interests at heart. And sometimes how we go about stuff changes and evolves as our kids grow and we figure out what works for each.
Peace and Hugs to you all - we are all doing 'the hardest and most important job in the world'. =)
))))Hugging the group(((((
))))Hugging the group(((((
I've been in situations where
I've been in situations where I didn't have a reason other than it was what I knew intuitively to be the best decision, in that instance, I pull the, "because I'm the mom," card. I give the reason when its simple and easy for them to get. But sometimes, in more complicated situations I don't feel it is necessary for me to explain myself/reasoning. In this way, I'm giving them the gift of knowing it is okay to not feel they need to articulate every action they do or reason they do something, that sometimes it is okay to do something just because it feels right - no reason, nothing to explain. I know parents can abuse the "because I said so" card, but it can be used without it being about a power play. I've always felt this way and then recently I got this in my e-mail box and was all like, BINGO:
In response to "Because I Said So!" (WHICH YOU CAN READ HERE: http://www.enjoyparenting.com/daily-groove/because-i-said-so) a new subscriber
wrote this:
> ...I think explaining the reasoning behind
> something gives the child tools to be confident
> and eventually cultivate their own power as a
> strong person. My mother always explained things
> to me and when I heard "because I said so" from
> other adults it confused me. I wanted to learn
> about the world, not be blindly dominated.
My response to her:
If you keep reading The Daily Groove every day,
you'll eventually realize that when something I
write *seems* like dominator tactics, it means I'm
challenging you to look beyond the usual categories
and explore the subtler distinctions. Supporting the
shift from domination to partnership is the core
purpose of my work.
Helping children cultivate self-empowerment is
precisely why we must see the *positive* potential
of "because I said so" and not throw out the baby
with the bathwater just because the phrase has been
used in disrespectful ways.
Living a self-empowered life means KNOWING your
truth in a way that transcends reason. A newborn
child may be utterly dependent on others, but she is
self-empowered in the sense that she's born knowing
she's WORTHY of existing and satisfying her desires.
Conventionally parented children are trained *out*
of that knowing -- conditioned to believe that their
desires must be justified. But if a baby could talk
and you asked her why she should be held and nursed
and loved, she might very well answer, "Because
I said so!" No intellectual understanding or
justification is required for her to *know* she's
worthy.
As parents, there are times when, after consulting
our hearts and considering everyone's needs and
desires, we just *know* what to do, yet no amount of
reasoning will convince our children to agree. These
are times when we need to remember that "because I
said so" is not always a domination ploy. Yes, this
is a slippery slope, but if your heart is in the
right place -- the partership place -- then "because
I said so" can be an expression of compassionate
leadership that ultimately relieves your child of
the scary feeling of having too much responsibility
and having to understand complexities beyond his
current capacity.
To be clear, I generally don't recommend using the
exact phrase "because I said so." The important
thing is to stay connected to your Authentic Power.
Offering a developmentally appropriate explanation
can be helpful, but when I see parents explaining
their decisions to their children (especially
toddlers), more often than not they seem to be
disconnecting from their power -- giving it away to
the "false god" of reason and inadvertently teaching
their children to do the same.
Personally, my best parenting moments have been
those with the fewest words. However, if you feel
self-empowered as you offer explanations to your
child, then I see no harm in it. But if you ever
feel like you "have to" or "should" explain
yourself, you might want to try the heart-centered
version of "because I said so" -- or its wordless
equivalent of simply knowing what you know, trusting
your intuition, and being fully present with your
child no matter how he or she reacts to your
"unreasonable" response.
Regardless, I appreciate that you're thinking for
yourself and not following my advice just because
*I* said so.
Enjoy!
Scott (FROM THE DAILY GROOVE)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I thought this was really interesting, of-course because it supported my intuitive impulse towards that age old parenting response of: because i said so!
Mmm... I still disagree with that article.
It's because I don't feel like I'm in power. I don't wanna be my kid's boss, I wanna be his teacher, or his guide. Children are naturally curious. I don't want to raise a child who blindly follows orders just because they order-giver said so. I don't want him using blind faith. I want him to question what he's told, even if it's by me. And honestly, if I want him to put away the dishes for no other reason than the fact that I'm too lazy to do it, then that becomes a favor and I pose it as such. Then he's free to say "no thank you". I just don't think it's fair to ask a child to do something or to not do something for no reason at all. I think you're risking teaching him that whatever the authority says, goes. And I just don't buy into that. But then, I'm an activist and I'm always questioning authority, so I guess I'm just passing on the legacy. If what I'm doing turns my kid into a protesting, sign wielding activist that chains himself to a tree because he refuses to do what he's told just because the authority tells him to, I'd be a proud mama!
"Feminists are just women who don't want to be treated like shit." -Su.
"I think you're risking
"I think you're risking teaching him that whatever the authority says, goes."
Nah, I'm not risking anything. And I can assure you that I'm raising my kids to be critical thinkers and question everything, too. I also hope to instill in them the value of trusting their own intuition which can not always be explained, nor has to. And that just because they are free to question, and should, that not every question has an answer, or an answer that will suit their needs. I don't feel the need to explain every "no" to other adults, or sometimes my only reason is, "I don't feel like it," which is what I feel pretty free to tell my children, "no, you can't because mommy doesn't feel like it or mommy doesn't think its a good idea," and if the why, why, why's? persist... because momma said so - end of story. Its not an every day or every situation moment, as I am wordy with my children, but sometimes, the situation calls for it - and I don't feel like its a risk to their ability to critically think about life. That is how life is sometimes. Ya can question till your blue in the face, but will never understand why? I don't expect my kids to always understand my explanations.
very well written and good food for thought...
The only thing that kinda made me wince was "He is my equal".
Maybe I'm taking it wrong, but a young child is most certainly not an adult's equal. I'm all for kids being treated respectfully and kindly. But they are still new to this earth. They just don't have the wisdom or judgement that comes from many years of experience yet. Decades of living (hopefully) teaches us alot.
As my Dad (whom I have the highest level of respect for as a parent) used to say in a very matter-of-fact way, "Your mother and I have been around alot longer than you, that's why we know alot more than you. And that's why we ARE the boss of you".
Makes sense to me.
I take the "he is my equal"
I take the "he is my equal" to mean that children deserve equal respect and consideration that adults get. Yes, children are different from adults, but they still have rights and still deserve respect. That's what I think of as equality. So with that, I'm inclined to agree with Henry.
"Feminists are just women who don't want to be treated like shit." -Su.
Very interesting
I especially like the good friend analogy. of course you would not interact with her in this way...because she is not a small child. Kids are indeed people, but they are not adults. It is impressive to see a new person of this age speak clearly to adults or sitting quietly, because as any adult who has been around a person under 6 years or so for more than a few minutes knows, this is a very, very difficult thing for them to do. So people say, oh my! what a good child, because a beyond-their-years level of self-control and maturity is assumed or it is assumed the child is trying, working very hard to be still or to express themselves or whatever. I think that is what people are praising...
Personally I think people ages 1-3ish are very much like dogs in their behavior, 3-6ish less so but still a little canine. and I don't mean this in a disparaging way. Dogs are dogs. People at certain age groups act very much like dogs. It is what it is. Dogs aren't bad creatures for how they act, and neither are kids. I must say I am deeply impressed at what seems to me to be acres of patience and personal reserves in you; I am lacking those. I simply did not have it in me to let my kids, especially my sons (!!!!!)(extrememly high energy levels!!!!)(aaaaaaaaaaagh!!!! LOL)'do mostly what they wanted'. oh my, are you serious?? To me that makes you seem so...saint-like LOL. My attempts at doing so (letting them do whatever they mostly wanted) resulted in them climbing onto the roof, walking around the edge of the balcony, dashing into the street and so forth. Then there were the minor more mundane horrors of wee people I'm gonna-do-whatever-the-fudge-I-mostly-want-to-do behavior, such as pissing in my plants (the floors, the walls, etc), running through stores, throwing things, breaking things, and in general acting the fool.
Giving them non-violent discipline and structure including pavlovian behavior techniques helped us all a great deal, as well as changing our environment to suit their age levels (e.g we got rid of glasses, glass dishes, containers, etc so did not have to worry about them breaking glass, stuff like that). Just like you can train a dog to not poop on your floor or tear up your house or bite others or run through the streets, you can do the same with a small kid.
My mothering life became sweet again and I was able to relax and enjoy raising my children. how do I put it? I learned...how to prevent most fires in the first place rather than spending my days putting out fires, you know? But my experience in child rearing is not for everyone! I really really like reading about how other people raise their kids, and I'm curious to see how your experience with your child will turn out. definitely keep writing about it!
eco & biz
Imagination is the living power and prime agent of all human perception.
~Samuel Taylor Coleridge
I wonder if Cesar Milan would
I wonder if Cesar Milan would be as good at helping toddlers as he is dogs? LOL! Maybe him and the Nanny shows could team up and compare notes? Your dog analogy cracks me up. I kind of get it, kind of don't. None-the-less, funny stuff.
South Park is gross
every other episode I'm getting scarred for life so I really should stop watching it, but there is a very funny episode w/cesar milan where he teaches cartman's mother how to make him behave using dog training techniques. It was hysterical!
seriously tho ugh everyone has to find and walk their own mothering path for sure...but I see/read/hear about mothers having such a hard time when their kids are wee and it truly does not have to be that way; the hardness can be minimized and the joy and happy levels f or both mama and kids increased by meeting/treating children where they are. in any case they will grow out of the puppy-acting stage whatever you do, but why not make that stage easier on you both. This was one of the lightbulbs that radicalized my mothering world!
eco & biz
Imagination is the living power and prime agent of all human perception.
~Samuel Taylor Coleridge
"...by meeting/treating
"...by meeting/treating children where they are."
hot damn! bingo! words of wisdom right there.
Oh yeah...
It kind of irks me when people say "you're a mother, that's the hardest job there is." I just don't see it as a job, it's just a part of life (a wonderful part). And it's not that hard if you don't want it to be. I think people have these expectations of what kids are supposed to be like and what motherhood is supposed to be like, but it's rarely like that. I'm proud to have the privilege, and it's only as hard as you make it.
"Feminists are just women who don't want to be treated like shit." -Su.
it is a part of life! but i
it is a part of life! but i see it as work. not like, a paying job. its way more rewarding than that every was for me. also, i'm more emotionally invested. but yeah, i have to raise my hand in considering it to be my job. its not so much that its hard, per say, but that its the most important job i will ever have - and its kind of like computer work, i always have to update my data!
me too.
it's not just a part-time hobby or something that just comes easily and painlessly for me; it's full-time work, alot of personal investment, and slow but steady and wonderful payoff...the way i see it, it's the hardest "job" i've ever had. "and its kind of like computer work, i always have to update my data!"-- agreed! LOL
how old were your kids when
how old were your kids when you had this lightbulb? i think as children get older, it does get easier for most folks. and no matter how you shake it, the early years are challenging. unless you have mega hands on support, it is a learn as you go process that presents lots of conflict along with opportunities to learn. i know as my kids are older, i feel less in the thick of it. it wasn't like a light bulb went off, though, it was more of a gradual progression to mothering being easier as i grew with my kids.
9, 4, 1
I-bop was 9, S-bop was 4 nearing 5, and T-bop was 1 nearing 2. oh yes the early years are VERY challenging, especially w/my sons, but for me I found the early years easier and more fun when I learned how to interact with the kids at their level! It changed my life in a revolutionary way. I was less crabby, had more energy, and my complaining about my children/being a mama went way way down because I was less stressed out and less resentful. They were always happy kids but this caused them to be happier also!e
eco & biz
Imagination is the living power and prime agent of all human perception.
~Samuel Taylor Coleridge
yes. so true. i and i didn't
yes. so true. and i didn't feel crabby until i had my second baby. i had to learn how to go with the flow with two in a way that was different than with one. but it was more of an evolutionary experience for me to get to the point where i was enjoying parenting two than having it happen over-night. the evolution is different for everyone! and having three kids, i can see why your first was nine y/o before you relaxed, cuz you still had two younger ones. something about the youngest sibling hitting 2 that made things easier around here too! anyway, i think we just started a side convo! sorry wildmama!
PS: i was overwhelmed when i had my first, but not crabby towards my baby (others, now that is a different story - the hormones were a bitch). just want to clarify so i don't come off as always having an easy go at mothering. most of ya'll know me from when max was a wee one but for those who don't, i don't want to give the wrong impression about being a new mama.
"I"m not disciplining...
I'm asserting my dominance"! Loved that one!
Ha ha ha! Yeah, I don't
Ha ha ha! Yeah, I don't really get dog analogies when it comes to raising children either. I can raise a child easy. But there is no way in hell I can take care of a dog. And I think you're treading on dangerous territory when you compare dogs and children anyway. Best to leave that one alone.
"Feminists are just women who don't want to be treated like shit." -Su.
i wish i could lock max up in
i wish i could lock max up in a crate while i left the house!
Bwahahaha!
Bwahahaha!
"Feminists are just women who don't want to be treated like shit." -Su.
fantastic
i couldn't agree with you more.
even among progressive people, there is the sentiment that children should be seen and not heard. expressing themselves when they are joyous is OK, as long as it is not disruptive to the adults, and expressing anger, fear, or impatience is def. a no no. it's certainly not fair.
and to some extent (although no one would ever say it like this) many people think of children as though they are property. they are not free and must bend to the will of any and all adults around them. sigh.
i am a hopeful future mama: conceived on May 1, 2009 and due January 22, 2010!
this is right on
I totally agree and it's been really bugging me lately too. But mostly because I've been starting to notice how much of this silliness I still perpetuate.
I feel so self-conscious lately as I try to resist saying anything and just watch, (instead of labeling and judging). It's tough.
awesome blog, Henry
I completely agree!!!
It's my personal pet peeve, when total strangers call my baby "good" - which they do A LOT. In fact, strangers and people we know/are related to. Because she is a very easy-going baby. So she's not pitching fits or crying or whatever negative thing people expect little babies to do. But, as much as I'd like to take the credit for her general happiness and whatnot, in reality, it's just who she is. And if she wasn't like that? She'd still be "good" in my eyes. So I always say very firmly when people say she's "good" that she's easy-going. I'm not sure people get the message, though.
That's kind of a little side issue. But yes, I'm not sure why we still have this culture that if children are quiet and barely noticable then it's good but if not...urgh. You are so right that many books are all about how to control/manipulate our children into behaving and that most of them seem to assume that children are naturally BAD and need to be socialized into decent humans. Mind-boggling!!!
Also- I giggled: "Not that cookies are bad. We both love cookies." Me too! T. would too if she had one!
i completely agree
you have put into words what i often think about. these observations are very true, and your child is a lucky one to have a very perceptive mama!
there's no government like NO government!
~hildare
very well written. i think
very well written. i think you should write a book, "How To Interact With and Treat Children." i often find myself thinking that it is the grown ups that need to learn some new behaviors.
having said that, and i agree with what you wrote, too, it is really hard to put all my idealism into practice every moment of the day. sometimes, i bribe. sometimes, i threaten. and i catch myself doing it and am like, "ooops! shift gears!" and i also think it is my job to teach my children appropriate behaviors, which is really in my eyes teaching them how to be true to their nature with kindness. "be the change you want to see" comes from a behaviorist's perspective. sometimes, in order to create positivity, i have to go against the negative knee-jerk reaction i have to someone/thing and behave with honest and kind communication. of-course, some adults would think a child doing this would be "rude"! but i think it would be awesome!
i hate the way adults expect a certain robotic behavior for children but run stupid themselves. i too am going to share this piece with others. thank you for writing!
Wow that was well stated.
Wow that was well stated. Wonderful even. I wonder if I could pass this blog on to others? It's beautiful, I totally agree, and it needed to be said. Thank you.
"Feminists are just women who don't want to be treated like shit." -Su.
sure
glad you liked it. This whole topic has been driving me crazy lately.