poop.
i mean seriously, my child is brilliant. writes his name. is incredibly creative. paints. draws. makes hilarious jokes. is so caring about others. he is so cool, i can't believe it. he is also 4 years old, turned 4 at the beginning of november, and will. not. poop. on the potty. he has been pee trained for 2 years. TWO YEARS. he wears underpants. he never pees his pants, never poops his pants. holds it. asks for a pull up, gets it, puts it on himself, goes. sometimes struggles with letting me clean him up, tries to avoid it i mean, procrastinates. wakes up dry almost all the time.
when it is time to go, if i refuse the pull up, he cries, says he is afraid. cries piteously, escalates to sobs, begs for a pull up. says he is sorry.
sigh. this is when i usually give in.
i am not sure why i am posting this here. i guess if anybody has some support, or a similar story, that would be good to hear. i know i don't want to force it. i have tried a lot. rewards, charts, treats, verbal encouragement, hugs, miralax, new potties, gah. we tried counting down to the day and then going cold turkey. i am the one that gives in. i am so torn. what in the world is going on!
“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
Friedrich Nietzsche
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I have the same problem only it is with sleeping in his own bed & I am a pushover when I am exhausted & tired of arguing over it. I don't have any really constructive ideas, but you certainly have my sympathy. Maybe when yours poops on the pot & mine is sleeping in his own bed we can PM eachother & celebrate from afar?
I would just wait.
There can be so many weird potty things and eventually your son will poop in a toilet. If he is afraid and begging it may not be worth it.
creepy poop story- skip if you want, it's just that pooping, or not pooping can really fuck shit up:
When my son was in the hospital we shared a room with two different kids (one was three, the other five) who were hospitalized so they could be forced to poop. They put an ng tube in, forced some creepy liquid into their stomaches so they would have to poop and keep on pooping until "they pooped it alllll out" and basically this meant the kids were waiting and their noses hurt and their moms were worried and then they had to poop and poop and poop and both of them had to wear diapers the whole time because they would go uncontrollably so the toilet wasn't an option. Both had to take laxatives every day until they grew bigger (so that the stretched out intestines were the right size to push out poop again - we heard it all through the curtain). Both moms said that their kids didn't like to poop, didn't want to poop, it scared them or hurt them or whatever and then the problem had cycled out of control.
Which is another thing that no one wants to happen and few people can even imagine without hearing about, I mean, who knew?
It sounds like the kind of issue I often have - I love my kid and I have a problem with something he does or doesn't do that isn't hurting me or him or anyone else at all, just doesn't sit right with me or seem "normal". On these things I try try try to just stay out of it and let him be because it's my stuff that is the real problem, not his stuff.
And lastly, could you tell him something like that you have a hard time with it and it's your problem and that you trust him to figure it out and then put the pullups somewhere he can get them, tell him he can do it his way, tell him you will help him learn to wipe or do it for him if he needs it, and then let him try it himself? That way it might not be so in your face and then it's his responsibility, so he can deal with it. This is the type of thing I am doing more lately when we have issues that I have trouble with, but are ok, really. Plus, they'll all grow up to be adults and act like adults by the time they are adults. Pretty much. He won't be pooping in pullups as an adult, or in high school, or junior high, or elementary school. Maybe kindergarten, but even that is unlikely. But yeah, I would just tell him it's ok to do it how he needs to and that I trust him to figure it out - every time i put the responsibility on my kid, he rises to the occasion.
My son is about the same age and they are quirky fabulous little people.
I once worked with a physical therapist that did some sort of adjustment for kids that were bound up like that, it worked so well they came in quarterly. I just can't imagine... an NG tube... how friggin awful!
it is amazing how far some people will take their bizarre imperatives about how children "should" be.
you are right about the notion of "normal" and how we should probably stay out of these issues with these little people.
i think i will try telling him that it just is hard for me, and that it isn't his problem, and if it isn't bothering him, that i will respect that. good idea. thank you so much for that.
they are quirky and fabulous. mine is as i type this banging out an almost perfect rhythm on two pots right along with the ramones.
At work, you think of the children you have left at home. At home, you think of the work you've left unfinished. Such a struggle is unleashed within yourself. Your heart is rent.
- Golda Meir
Maybe it's the sitting that bugs him... afraid his dangling penis will flush down the toilet or something? Maybe reverting to a small, non scary potty like one of those single moulded bjorns where he can just go in a corner and squat instead of the pullup? The good news is, that this is just the last phase of potty training and soon it will all be behind you.
and then i got him a REALLY simple little pot at ikea that was supposed to be "just for poop" (vincent's idea, BTW) that just sits there, empty and lonely.
it is totally the sitting that bugs him. i don't get it. maybe i should encourage him to hold onto his penis or something...i will talk to him about this. thanks BC.
At work, you think of the children you have left at home. At home, you think of the work you've left unfinished. Such a struggle is unleashed within yourself. Your heart is rent.
- Golda Meir
I'll share our story so you'll now you're not alone, but of course every kid is different so what finally helped us may not work for you. My son pooped and peed in diapers at 4. I kept trying to encourage him to use the potty, and he would get hysterical. I frequently got frustrated and angry. Finally, I realized I had to make the changes to what he was used to so incremental that he didn't noticed them. I had been putting on the diaper, and then he would go to the bedroom to poop. The first change was that I calmly told him that from now on, he would go in the diaper in the hall outside the bathroom. We did that for a week. And then a week of inside the bathroom door. Then we eventually worked our way to standing on a small stool in front of the toilet, and then we did a week or to of "practicing" sitting, which meant briefly touching his butt to the seat before going. Then we finally managed sitting on the toilet in the diaper. Then I started cutting a hole in the diaper. I made it small at first, but gradually bigger. Eventually, he was going on the toilet like a normal person, but with a sort of diaper belt on, which it took him a long time to give up. From when we started the process to when we were completely diaper free took about 7 months. I can't tell you how proud I am that I finally figured out how to help my son, and that I stayed calm and patient the whole time. Good luck -- you do know that your son won't poop in diapers forever, and I'm sure you'll find the key soon.
Emile, YOU ARE AS FREAKIN' AWESOME. I would not have had the patience to do that. But, then again, I haven't been faced with this particular issue and I know how good it feels to find a solution to the issue without feeling like I'm traumatizing my child! This is such a great suggestion. I mean, really, you pretty much have to trick these little buggers into doing anything they don't want to do!
I'm routing for you punkmama and your little pooper! You can do it!
Wow! You are such a smart, patient mom.
What a wonderful way to get the job done and still keep your kid's emotions ok. Heck, I'm proud of you !
i agree, you are amazing! i read about that approach on the dr. sears website, and thought it sounded overwhelming, so i am so heartened to see that you did it and that it worked for you! that idea about the butt just touching the seat being "practicing" sitting is genius, and i am going to use that, right away. thank you so much!
At work, you think of the children you have left at home. At home, you think of the work you've left unfinished. Such a struggle is unleashed within yourself. Your heart is rent.
- Golda Meir
after reading everyone else's advice, I realize I just don't know how to deal with this! I was all originally like, meh, take the nappy away, make him clean up his poop (help him, of-course) if he does it on the floor, keep encouraging him, so on and so fourth. But, you got such great suggestions here from the other mamas who have been through this that I realize that this can be a emotionally pain free lesson for your boy! I'm all hard core right now because I'm about to transition my boy into his own room. AND I KNOW that kid is going to HAVE A FIT. I'm scared. Good luck mama! And do let us know when he poops on that potty! 
why do you think we waffle so much based on how they will react?
here is why i say this...
i have a few work friends who are older, and they both were basically laughing at my "concern" with how v. "feels" about this...they were like, who cares if he doesn't like it?!? you know it is best, so just do it! you aren't harming him, even if you are upsetting him.
WHOA!
that is so true, and food for thought. you are not harming m. by teaching him to self soothe, which is what i think is at the core of sleeping in a different space than mama. actually, you are giving him a huge gift, in teaching him that he can remember that he is safe and happy even when he can't see or feel you. imagine the future relationship advantages of that lesson! wow. but when they aren't happy about these things, it makes us scared to follow through. are we over analyzing? cause maude knows i NEVER do that...*rolls eyes*
should i listen to the older mamas whose kids are all grown up? i think so.
At work, you think of the children you have left at home. At home, you think of the work you've left unfinished. Such a struggle is unleashed within yourself. Your heart is rent.
- Golda Meir
He would only poop in a diaper even though he was completely potty trained with pee.
He's in kindergarten and still holds it, but will go at home.
The hard part is they hold it and that's not good. However, the story below about forcing them to poop sounds horrific.
He'll get there. maybe try some different potty chairs or rewards?
.
i will NOT force him, at home or anywhere else. that is so pathological! i have tried both a new potty and rewards. how is mcat doing with it?
At work, you think of the children you have left at home. At home, you think of the work you've left unfinished. Such a struggle is unleashed within yourself. Your heart is rent.
- Golda Meir
Is there anyone around him that has got some shame about pooping? When we were first potty training ds, things were pretty fine, but I had an aversion to the word "poop," and preferred to say "shit." I think that there was a little shame there (cause I grew up with that) and even when I changed the word, the "vibe" of shame was still there for a little while and that caused some difficulty early on (around the 2 year marker). We ended up putting the book, "Everybody Poops" right next to his potty and we would read that to him while he was sitting there. It helped for both of us.
He was potty trained by 24 months, and things seemed to be fine, but then, about 6 months ago he got a new teacher in his school and after he would poop, he would look at it and say, "that's DISGUSTING." This started a whole new level of shame with his bathroom habits and I had to go and talk to the school about this.
Pooping is totally natural, but for some reason, more members than not of our community have shame issues around it and kids feel this more than any words that are said on top of it. I would look at the signals that he's receiving from the adults in his life and try and counteract that.
Also - when you say that you have tried a lot...I know that you are putting 'positive' energy into it, but that's still a lot of energy getting put into getting him to do this. This is all about HIS dignity, right? Which means it's all about his worthiness for respect in the larger picture. When you use charts and stars and all of that stuff to try and get him to do something he's not comfortable with, do you think it could be sending a signal that he gets rewarding for increasing YOUR dignity? Because I can see feeling that way with some of the stuff my parents did with me, and it's not about the kid anymore, it's about the parent. Not saying that's the case for you, but when I read this, I just saw all of that energy being put into his pooping, and that would make me feel kind of scared to go.
Have you read "What is 'unconditionality'" by Scott Noelle? Sometimes when I am feeling like I'm in a total rut with ds I go back and read that:
http://www.scottnoelle.com/parenting/unconditional.htm
I don't think it has to be about who gives in - I think it can be about you both maintaining your separate dignities and peace of minds. If he wants to poop in pull ups, I don't see the problem with that, but he should be responsible for that too, since he's 4. Maybe you can keep a stack of the pull ups in the bathroom where he can get to them (taking the pressure off of his having to ask), as well as a stack of cloths that he can wet down and wipe with after he has used to pull-up. I would teach him where to dispose of it when he is done too. This puts him in charge of his own pooping experience, and lets him decide, each time, how he wants to do it and the amount of work that he wants to do. That way, you don't need to feel like you've given in at all - and he does all the work. When he's ready to stop using them, even if he's 7, then that's fine, right? It's his poop and his body, and his choice. I'm sure he has a backpack...he can carry his own "poop gear" when you guys go out if necessary??
And I know that the Daily Groove can be somewhat New Agey, but it's helped me a lot. I thought that this "receiving mode" might be good too:
http://www.enjoyparenting.com/daily-groove/receiving-mode-2
"Fundamentally the markswoman aims at herself" DT Suzuki
"Fundamentally the markswoman aims at herself" DT Suzuki
that is a lot of good food for thought.
i don't think there is any shame about pooping or peeing per se, but punkpapa is pretty shy about his toileting issues, where as i am not. my MOM, on the other hand, is totally ashamed to poo, won't do it in public and uses a bathroom in the opposite end of the house to do it so that my dad never knows about it...seriously! wow. i need to think about that!
those are both really good articles, thank you so much. i also had punkpapa read them.
putting him in charge, combined, i think, with some gentle guidance and baby steps towards the potty, i think are the way to go. it IS his poop and his body, you are right, i will keep repeating that to myself. i really don't care about cleaning up or helping him clean up, i mean, when i say it is old or getting old, what i guess i mean is that i wish it were not still an issue. which, if i am so cool with it, why is it an issue, right?
mostly because punkpapa is convinced it is, and my mom too.
so instead of manifesting this struggle in front of or involving vinny, i may need to talk it out with them as well...
thanks SQ. you are awesome.
At work, you think of the children you have left at home. At home, you think of the work you've left unfinished. Such a struggle is unleashed within yourself. Your heart is rent.
- Golda Meir
at least that's what happened with my friend's kid who was exactly the same way. he started school and there were rules at school about what kids that still needed diapers could and couldn't do, and he decided on his own that getting to go on field trips etc was worth pooping in the potty. the issue just disappeared one day after more than a year of constant struggle about it. until then i love SQ's suggestion to just give him the responsibility/control over his pooping- once pull ups aren't forbidden fruit they might lose some of their appeal. good luck!!
although that is a while away because of his birthday...although i agree, i think SQ's advice is best for right now.
At work, you think of the children you have left at home. At home, you think of the work you've left unfinished. Such a struggle is unleashed within yourself. Your heart is rent.
- Golda Meir
Good luck! It seems like everyone else has useful advice, but I just wanted to let you know I am rooting for you.
i needed that!
At work, you think of the children you have left at home. At home, you think of the work you've left unfinished. Such a struggle is unleashed within yourself. Your heart is rent.
- Golda Meir
as DD waved goodbye to 'mama's poop' this morning (TMI?) What do you do with the poop after he uses the pull up? I read somewhere that it is scary for kids to have a "piece of them" get flushed down the toilet. Can you empty the pull-up into the toilet and watch it go down together? Has he seen you or his papa poop on the toilet? We took a long time to train, too. My 4.5 year old will be wearing pull ups to bed forever, I think. Good luck mama, I know cleaning up poop gets old!
he watches us all the time, and likes to flush his down, says bye to it and all. thanks for the encouragement mama!
At work, you think of the children you have left at home. At home, you think of the work you've left unfinished. Such a struggle is unleashed within yourself. Your heart is rent.
- Golda Meir
had issues too. I don't think much worked for him other than growing up a bit more. So does he have problems with constipation at all, does he retain?
no, not unless i refuse the pull up. then, he will hold it until he falls asleep, or maybe until the next morning. i was giving him miralax when we were not giving him pull ups to avoid constipation, and it seemed to help with that. he would hold it still, but not until it became an issue internally. he doesn't mind pooping itself, just doing it anywhere other than the potty. he actually pooped on the floor a couple of times when we were trying to go without pull ups, i would take his underpants off and he would hold it till he just couldn't anymore, then poo on the floor, crying. it broke my heart! i would assure him it was just poop, not a big deal, everyone poops, etc. but he would get so upset! sigh.
At work, you think of the children you have left at home. At home, you think of the work you've left unfinished. Such a struggle is unleashed within yourself. Your heart is rent.
- Golda Meir
We also tried everything you listed, in addition to me being a pushy asshole about it. And you know that saying about nobody going to college in diapers that is supposed to make mamas of kids who won't use the potty feel better? Well it always bothered me because I was worried about kindergarten, not college, and it offered no solace there.
Anyway, my older son has some GI issues and I've found that the best way to keep him running smoothly is to avoid refined sugar, corn syrup, figure out what he's allergic/sensitive to and avoid all that and go periodically to a chiropractor. Is all that kinda expensive and disruptive? Yeah. BUT. To me it has been totally worth it. We save a lot of money by not eating out anymore. We save a lot of money by not having popcorn/drinks if we ever go to movies. No. Crap. Ever. is pretty much how we eat. We save seriously hundreds/a thousand plus dollars a year on doctor's appointments which we haven't needed to make in over a year now when we had been going to stuff like the immediate care clinic multiple times a season and one May we were in there every fucking weekend. Also, now we don't snack. We have regular meals at regular intervals to give the body something substantial to make room for at regular intervals.
Whatever you choose to do, good luck. He sounds like a great kid!
***the United States is one of only four out of 168 countries studied to not have some form of paid family leave for new moms. We join Swaziland, Papua New Guinea, and Lesotho in not having that policy in place. ***
that is excellent input about food and intervals between eating...i am diabetic and tend to feel best when i graze, and vincent kinda eats with me like that...which isn't hurting his digestion so much, but does make it hard for me to predict when he will have to poo...hmmmmm.
you know, his poo itself is totally normal. i should be grateful for a hot minute about that at least.
i miss your voice, v, you are not around as much...you are in school still?? i should talk. i lurk and then come on and talk about poo.
At work, you think of the children you have left at home. At home, you think of the work you've left unfinished. Such a struggle is unleashed within yourself. Your heart is rent.
- Golda Meir
It is good to read you again as well.
A lot of things have conspired to keep me off hipmama. Living in a nicer climate, we can get out more year round. I've gotten into knitting and have a couple art projects perpetually in the works. We have more of a social life irl. We have a TV, so that's another screen to check out. I've recently gotten into facebook a little. You know how it goes, but I've missed my hipmamas, that's for sure.
Yeah, I'm in school. I just got home from Drug Education class which is pretty neat. Apparently not many of us appreciated all the federal dollars spent on DARE. Though one young man still has his award necklace for being a top DARE student in 5th grade. This class is bringing back some of the chuckles of my youth such as carving "Do Bongs" into my desk during health class.
That's really good that Vincent's poo is normal and that he has such a good attitude/etc. If he had serious issues you'd know. This will pass (pardon the pun) and Vincent will be a potty pro eventually.
***the United States is one of only four out of 168 countries studied to not have some form of paid family leave for new moms. We join Swaziland, Papua New Guinea, and Lesotho in not having that policy in place. ***
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and it is for the same reason, mama. exhaustion, and i feel like, we don't get to spend enough time together as it is, and there is the guilt of that too. which i need to be aware of more. yeah, we will be celebrating eventually...promise!?!?!?
At work, you think of the children you have left at home. At home, you think of the work you've left unfinished. Such a struggle is unleashed within yourself. Your heart is rent.
- Golda Meir