Overpopulation or lack thereof: Your thoughts please?
Overpopulation was mentioned in another blog here - and this is something that I'm always interested in discussing, so I wanted to see what other mamas opinions here were.
I did my undergraduate degree in physics, with a focus on environmental physics. My teachers taught there there is definitely a population crisis happening - but this was physics, and not sociology, so I was taught this through equations that dealt with land and water resources, caloric requirements for human beings, etc... and we did not talk about solutions to this problem, nor the sociological impacts of this problem.
Last week in another thread here, I saw it mentioned by a couple of mamas that they've heard that the population crisis is unwarranted...and I'd like to read and talk about the arguments for that, because I hadn't heard them before. Rather, I've heard arguments about whether or not we have reached the Earth's maximum carrying capacity YET.
Garrett Hardin wrote "The Tragedy of the Commons," in 1968. Since then, there have been various spin off articles that try and clarify, and put in simpler terms, what he had written.
(For an explanation of what the Tragedy of the Commons is, see Hanson's Tragedy of the Commons Re-stated.
His basic ideas were:
The human population grows exponentially.
This world and it's resources are finite.
Organisms require energy to live, and the more organisms, the more energy required.
Therefore...if the human population is not controlled in some manner, it will outgrow the resource potential of the earth. (This says nothing for the loss of other species life, but only for our own).
He also stated that the ideal human population is not equal to the maximum human population. (Meaning: just because the world CAN fit a certain number of people doesn't mean that we should aim for that, because an ideal human existence, in which we do not have to be rationed a daily caloric intake, etc... would mean that there are for more resources available than humans (or other animals) that need them.)
The big questions then become:
What is the maximum human population?
What is the ideal/optimal human population?
How do we keep population growth = to zero once we reach the ideal/optimal population?
Harding said, "We can make little progress in working toward optimum population size until we explicitly exorcise the spirit of Adam Smith in the field of practical demography. In economic affairs, The Wealth of Nations (1776) popularized the "invisible hand," the idea that an individual who "intends only his own gain," is, as it were, "led by an invisible hand to promote…the public interest." [5] Adam Smith did not assert that this was invariably true, and perhaps neither did any of his followers. But he contributed to a dominant tendency of thought that has ever since interfered with positive action based on rational analysis, namely, the tendency to assume that decisions reached individually will, in fact, be the best decisions for an entire society. If this assumption is correct it justifies the continuance of our present policy of laissez faire in reproduction. If it is correct we can assume that men will control their individual fecundity so as to produce the optimum population. If the assumption is not correct, we need to reexamine our individual freedoms to see which ones are defensible."
Which all comes down to the idea that, regardless of whether the population maximum has been met, it WILL be met, based on the previously stated ideas about population growth being exponential and resources being limited. This is where it gets really sticky, because as I saw in the previous blog, lots of us are saying that the government needs to keep their hands off our reproductive organs.
So, in terms of the Tragedy of the Commons and the individual putting their own needs and interests before those of the group, how does this play out? When Harding says that we can't be expected to control the population with our own consciences (because then those with no conscience will destroy the commons while those with conscience will die off), what do you think about that?
The other thing that I find interesting in the overpopulation discussion is that of the "carrying capacity" and "overshooting the carrying capacity."
The carrying capacity is defined as the amount of human beings that the earth can sustain. This is not the ideal population, but rather the maximum population -- meaning the amount of human beings that the Earth can feed, though what we are going to have to eat isn't going to be very tasty, and we will all be on a rationed caloric intake.
We may have already met the carrying capacity of the Earth (this is where part of the argument comes in), because Americans and other Westerners are consuming so many of the earth's resources while those in other countries are dying of starvation that if we were to mathematically subtract the excess from those countries and feed it to the starving nations, we may come up even.
The overshoot is defined as, ""Overshoot is the inevitable and irreversible consequence of continued drawdown, when the use of resources in an ecosystem exceeds its carrying capacity and there is no way to recover or replace what was lost. It takes many forms, depending on the system, but perhaps the clearest and in some ways the most touching is exemplified by Easter Island. When it was first settled a thousand years ago, the island was a rich and forested land covered with palms and a small native tree called the sophora, and on its sixty-four square miles a prosperous and literate culture developed organizational and engineering skills that enabled it to erect the famous massive stone statues all along the coastline. For reasons lost in time, the population of the island over the years increased to something like 4,000 people, apparently necessitating a steady drawdown of vegetation that eventually deforested the entire island and exhausted its fertile soils. Somewhere along the line came overshoot, unstoppable and final, and then presumably conflict over scarce food acreage, and ultimately warfare and chaos. By the time of Captain Cook's voyage to the island in the 1775 there were barely 630 people left, eking out a marginal existence; a hundred years later, only 155 islanders remained."
and overshoot results in a crash, which is a significant loss of life in the overshooting population. Many scientists believe that we are in an overshoot right now, which can feel like a time of prosperity, where everyone has enough food, but is then followed by a great loss of life through starvation and inadequate access to necessary resources.
So -- this is pretty incredible stuff for me to think about, especially as a parent. What are your thoughts?
I guess that part of me also thinks about why human beings are here (I believe in the whole Earth-as-an-organism theory), if there can be a "why." I have heard the idea that human beings are guardians of the Earth, acting as a sort of liason between the heavens and the earth...the ancient Chinese believed that we are made of earth and filled with heaven, and that puts us in a role of guardianship.
That gives me a lot to think about... in the terms that we do have a role to play here on the planet, and that part of that role is the governance of our use of the planet.
There are many other theories about why we are here. I think that the cultural myths that Daniel Quinn talks about in his book Ishmael (that modern day humans believe that they are the destroyers of the earth) really cause us to feel like nothing can be done about this, and it is our destiny to cause destruction, but I don't think I can buy into that.
"Fundamentally the markswoman aims at herself" DT Suzuki
- Strange Quark's blog
- Login or register to post comments
but these are things that i think about frequently, and i tend to get overwhelmed when i focus on it. i've always had a hard time not feeling guilty about how much excess i consume and waste while others watch their families starve to death. and, as you pointed out, this issue takes on a new urgency when we take into account that being a parent means having to worry about whether our own children could end up being the ones with empty bellies.
it would seem to me that if there are places in the world where children with distended bellies stand on corners with their hands outstretched while american soldiers toss bags of rice to them, it must mean that we've surpassed the ideal population, if not the maximum population. it may be unfortunately too late to limit our consumption and family size, because the resources we have left at this point may not stretch far enough to supply even the people alive right now.
which means we need to start thinking of alternative solutions. i've read before that if people everywhere began living in skyscraper communities (aka cities!), we could use more land area to grow crops for a fairly substantial period of time-- UNTIL we run out of water. at that point we'd better all hope that we have a backup plan-- mars, anyone?? they just discovered water there, so who's to say that we won't all begin migrating to another planet at some point in the near future?
this is a little off topic, but has anyone seen wall-e?? i only saw the first half because monkeygirl turned into a raging psycho after about 30 minutes, but it was a very sad movie. it portrays the future earth as a vast, abandoned landscape of nothing but trash. humans have all taken to living in giant space stations where they float around all day with a screen in front of their face in which they find their 'virtual life'. arms and legs have become vestigal limbs with pretty much no use. it was disturbing and frightening, only because it seems so within the realm of possibility. i don't want to get sidetracked with talking about how the digital age has brought some sad isolation for humanity, but i think that this has ALOT to do with our current situation, resource and population wise.
if people are rarely venturing outside of their homes to connect with the earth and other people, why would they give a shit that the earth is dying? they can easily distract themselves from ever once even pausing to think about the ramifications of their lifestyles; the virtual 'world' of possibilities right at our fingertips delays, even eliminates, awareness of social
responsibilities. people 50 years from now may not even care if the government is forcing them not to have children, since they may very well be able to strap on a some special glasses and tuck their holographic families into bed after story time.
i know i'm totally rambling here, but the point i'm trying to make is that i really don't think enough of the world's population actually cares enough about our future as a planet to fix the crisis. i may have a very negative view of humanity, but i think things have totally gone downhill since the industrial revolution. in america, we all live in homes that were built by someone else, eat food that was grown in a field we'll never see and then packaged in a factory we don't even know the name of. we've lost touch with the essence of 'survival.' we've become fat, lazy slobs incubating in this place.
i think that to force every person on this planet to take responsibility for their own survival could be a step in the right direction, but that would never happen. it's ineveitable that all societies begin to form 'teams' to split up the work and get a break sometimes. some of us take care of farming, others hunting, others building the houses, etc. and so on so forth until we get right back to the point we're at now: where most people are naware of the crisis our earth is in because they never see any of the evidence.
i wish i could make more sense here, but i hope i at least made a little. bottom line: i wish could have faith in mankind's ability to support and help each other until we can manage to come up with a solution for the population crisis, but i just don't. i think our consciences have become diluted with each passing decade and i'm not sure if we can get them back.
man, am i depressed now.
"it would seem to me that if there are places in the world where children with distended bellies stand on corners with their hands outstretched while american soldiers toss bags of rice to them, it must mean that we've surpassed the ideal population, if not the maximum population."
'cuz it just seems to out of the context of human history. as long as humans have been writing shit down, there has been poverty. i expect there was poverty before we started writing shit down. sometimes that poverty was due to a maldistribution of resources, but sometimes it was just due to a flat limitation of resources - drought this year? everyone who eats from the drought-stricken land will suffer deprivation, and some folks will die of it. nowadays, there are supposed to be ways to compensate for that, but it generally means if you have money, you can eat, and if you don't, tough shit. having grown up with hunger, i still stand in awe of supermarkets. if my ma could get money, we could eat. for most of human history and still in much of the world, that's just not the case. if we want to get everyone up close and personal with survival, lots of folks will die. period.
"if i pass for other than what i am, do you feel safer?" ~ lani ka'ahumanu
dragon knows dragon
the population argument rests on the premise that an increased human population is by default gonna be a bad deal all around. It could be, but population pressure could accelerate space travel (including speed/light issues) and an outward move of humans to other places to live besides earth or other places to live on earth, like a return to our oceans.
at any rate to limit the population would require not only the willingness to stop other people from having children and/or severely limit the number of children they are 'allowed' to have (quotes because to me the idea of controlling or attempting to control the number of children I or anyone else has is anathema to reproductive freedom), but also the means. We can't feed the world's starving but we have the means to stop them (and whoever else) from reproducing? humph.
The population argument reminds me of a book I read once called 'We Who Are About To' by Joanna Russ. In it some folks had crashed their space ship on an uncharted plant. Realizing chances of rescue were slim to none, a few of the women decided that they had to have sex with the men in order to 'continue the race'. One of the women declined. The other women helped to tie her up, saying things like 'If I have to, you have to'. Problem was, the woman saying that didn't have to. None of them did. But they couldn't see any other way, any other solution.
MSPmedia
No person is your friend who demands your silence, or denies your right to grow.
Alice Walker
I don't see 'death' as being the logical argument to an increased population. I see it as one of the possibilities. There are other possibilities, and there are other solutions. Perhaps one solution is an increase in folks like yourself who voluntarily limit their families to one child (you aren't ever having any more children are you?) or no child to balance out those folks like myself who have more than one.
Necessity is the mother of invention. I believe that the pressure caused by an increased population will trigger the necessary solution. As of right now, it's at population scare tactics point, of inciting in people a fear of the unknown to make people agree to actually putting limits on how many children other people can have. It's not 'we all agree to die for reproductive freedom' because reproductive freedom is an individual choice, not a 'we' choice. It's kind of like the social security argument of social security being broken, which is based on idea that all baby boomers will collect social security. It ignores fact that other variables exist, such as some boomers will never collect because they have died/will die before retirement, or are independently wealthy, etc. There are factors not being considered in the population argument or are dismissed out of hand.
I feel our species is headed toward great social change, and this will include a profound respect for the individual as well as a unified feeling among humanity as a whole. One of the results of this I feel, is an increase in the well-being, education, and health of the world's populace. a general result of which is more people having less children. Not because they are forced to, but because they choose to.
What are your ideas for limiting the population? How do you envision a solution to the population issue that does not involve just as much death as the one you fear will result because of overpopulation?
MSPmedia
No person is your friend who demands your silence, or denies your right to grow.
Alice Walker
I also don't see children as using up more resources. I see children more as an investment, or an asset to humanity rather than a deficit. Therefore children should be supported (education, health care, etc) by all adults in the population because all adults in the population will directly benefit from those very same children in a few decades. Children are, quite literally our future. A winnowed birth rate means a disproportionately high elderly rate...who is going to care for all those old people? I'm not even talking the sick and demented elderly, but even those who can care for themselves need occasional medical care and have occasional accidents. When I'm 90 and fall in the tub and break a hip, who is going to take care of it? Not someone my age, that's for sure, but someone born 40-50 years after me.
you wrote: If I had to pay a tax for each child I had, then I would limit the amount of children that I had.
You would, but that's not what everyone would do. I had very little money when I had any of my children, and I still chose to have them. If I had to pay taxes on my children, I would have still had them. I probably would not have paid the tax seeing as how I had little money. How do you propose making people pay taxes on children when they have little to no money? Jail? Sterilization? cause how I see it, making people pay for having kids will not induce them to have less children.
MSPmedia
No person is your friend who demands your silence, or denies your right to grow.
Alice Walker
the tragedy of the commons, imho, has been an excuse for both capitalism run rampant and for totalitarian fascism. the way i'm familiar with it is through property law where it was used to justify taking resources from poor folks who shared them and giving them to the wealthy folks who controlled the government and didn't share, regardless of who was starving to death. i'm not sure exactly how that relates, but it's what springs to mind.
as for humanity, when i get down to the bone of it, i think we won't last. we're a blink of the earth's eye, nevermind the solar system or the galaxy or the universe et cetera. i mean, i think we're pretty groovy in a lot of ways, but i don't think we're sustainable for the long haul. the dinosaurs faded out after 150 million years, but i don't think we primates will last anywhere near that long. some part of me grieves that as i grieve the potential loss of my personal consciousness and the wonder of those of my loved ones, most especially my child's. still another part of me is unperturbed because we are all inseparably part of the fabric of the universe, and that won't change.
now, what we do with whatever time we have remaining as a "dominant species", that's another story, and i'm interested in it, but even if it involves us "destroying the earth", i have every faith that she'll still be spinning around the sun when it burns out long, long after homo sapiens has vanished completely.
"if i pass for other than what i am, do you feel safer?" ~ lani ka'ahumanu
dragon knows dragon
i should check out your links, but my slackerliness at the jobby-job is already so stretched thin. later, though, i'll try later. my context for the "tragedy of the commons" is the fencing in of village greens and other commons in england just in time to drive the folks who used to rely on them for sustenance into the factories at the onset of the industrial revolution. this fencing was justified, the government/factory owners said, because the commons were going to be all used up by those poor people and their poor ways - neverminding of course, that those poor people had been successfully sharing those very resources for, oh, centuries, if not millenia.
the looped track that i run around in my head on this issue is that i have experienced something pretty damn close to subsistence living {eating almost only what we could grow, gather, hunt, or fish while living in dwellings that used absolutely no fossil fuels 'cuz they had no running water, gas, or electricity}, and i fuckin' loathed it. i was hungry and cold too much of the time, and it sucked. granted, i had that special kid-pissiness about it, but now, as a gimped-out woman fast approaching middle age, i have no desire to return to those conditions. not to mention that if we did, collectively en masse, most of us would die off pretty damn fast. the earth is not equipped to sustain 6 and half billion humans in subsistence conditions - that's why there weren't this many people when that was how we all got by.
so, if we're going to go to hell in a handbasket as a species anyway, i'd rather do it with our integrity intact, and to me, that's not just about us all deciding to die for reproductive freedom. deciding when and how to procreate is wrapped up with way more than just our gametes. the taxation that you mention wouldn't mean that rich people would have more kids, and poor people would have less. it would mean that more poor kids would go hungry and cold, suffer the lifetime consequences of malnutrition, die young, et cetera, because it would further codify the already dominant idea in the west that the children of the poor do NOT have the same basic rights as the children of the not-poor.
i mean, yeah, sure, if we had an ideal social democracy where everyone had equal access to all the resources necessary to be well clothed, shod, fed, housed, educated, and healthy, then hell, yeah, it'd work, but that ain't the world we live in, and it ain't likely to be any time soon, imho.
i'm holding forth again. i should go do jobby-job things. good topic, though. next slack time - read links above.
"if i pass for other than what i am, do you feel safer?" ~ lani ka'ahumanu
dragon knows dragon
interesting.
i'd say it's happening in switzerland and other western european social democracies 'cuz they've gotten way closer than we have to having anything close to equal access to basic resources like healthcare, work, food, education, et cetera. folks say we can't do that 'cuz our populations is too heterogenous and large, but i think that's bullshit.
"if i pass for other than what i am, do you feel safer?" ~ lani ka'ahumanu
dragon knows dragon
"If I had to pay a tax for each child I had, then I would limit them amount of children that I had. Right now, it's almost as if that is happening, because daycare costs are so high -- so this is where it starts to get really tricky in my mind. I think that the perfect society will be highly taxed, and provide it's citizens with full-health benefits, dental benefits, daycare for their children, etc... and that those who have more children will pay more tax, as well as those who use any more of the common resources than others (which includes the use of resources as well as the pollution of the group spaces)."
I am with you on this! More people/kids = more mouths to feed, more greenhouse gasses, more use of the earth's finite resources. It's true I am a mother of 1 AND that I have been envious at times of those who have 2 (would've done so probably if I could have done it in a way that worked for me, still wish I could do an international adoption)... but I don't think my response comes out of that. That being said, I do feel good (not superior, but good) about having one child in terms of environmental issues (and not sometimes in terms of more personal desires). I think it's just common sense- the earth is WAYYYYY overtaxed by humans and humans are way overtaxed by the conditions of life in most places, and so it would make sense to tax per child for example as appropriate and to pursue more balance in this way. I would be fully cool w/ paying double taxes for education for example if I had two children rather than one. But I didn't balk at paying high taxes w/ education in mind when I was childless either, because I value taking care of children and people #1. But I don't think it would be a bad thing for people to need to consider- what impact does my having a child or children have on the earth, on people/children/animals/plants life that is ALREADY here, and needy?
If we can raise our children, however few or many we have, to have some sense of responsibility for the earth, for others, and a consciousness of interconnectedness and interdependence, that could move the human race in a better direction too.
Anyone see The 11th Hour? Really illustrates why population growth is not working and also what could be done to create a more equitable and society more in balance w/ the earth using technology....
Navigation
Who's online
Who's New
- BeachBunny
- gayle.mallinger
- Mamapocket
- mjcwriter
- addie smith



I've heard the argument about everyone moving to the cities too, and it's been projected that more and more of the world's population will be moving into the cities (with less and less small farmers), although I think that those statistics may have been ill-informed, because we are seeing a resurgence in the demand for local produce, an increase in the amount of farmers markets in the country and more subscriptions to CSAs...so this may be a good pattern.
The problem with the move-to-the-city-use-less-resource is that it has the possibility of staving off the imminent crash, but growth still occurs and resources are still limited, so the problem is still there, and while it continues to be there, we are all living lives that are even less optimal, cause we are confined into these tiny little spaces (which may be a great factor in stopping this, who knows?).
The Wall-E thing is part of this cultural phenomenon that Daniel Quinn talked about in his Ishmael books, that we, as humans believe in this modern day myth that we are the destroyers of the Earth. Because of this, it is constantly portrayed in movies and science fiction novels that the world is going to end, and it will end at human hands. There is a fantasy for survival, and that is that we will be able to leave the earth and colonize elsewhere, but that's never been shown to be true, and the amount of money that it would take to even investigate those options is all getting poured into the war right now...and even if it weren't, my opinion is that education would be a better option for the money, and I know that every American has some other idea of where that money can go.
"i really don't think enough of the world's population actually cares enough about our future as a planet to fix the crisis." I think that's a big part of what Harding was saying, although he didn't attribute it to human cares necessarily. If you check out the Tragedy of the Commons Re-stated, it talks about the example of the common field. Each farmer has cattle grazing in the field. Say that there are 10 farmers, and each has 10 cattle. Well, I see that I can feed my family with my 10 cattle, but if I get another cow, then I can sell some of my product, so I go get that other cow, and another and another. Now my cows are taking up way more resources in the common land than the other farmers, but I am benefiting, as an individual, and that is enough for me to continue getting more cows.
Perhaps there is a farmer with an overwhelming conscience, who cannot justify getting more cows for her family, because she is seeing that all of the land is being eaten away and destroyed with manure and the burial's required. That farmer will not survive for long because she will slowly be eeked out as the resources of the commons are used up and her cattle die off. Statistically, because she has less cattle than everyone else, she will take a greater percentage of loss.
Harding says that we shouldn't allow commons. That's a pretty big issue. He means this in every sense, so the airspace should not be a commons - meaning that it's privately owned (even if privately owned by the government) and for each jet that passes through, they are taxed for their pollution.
We know about this with parking meters downtown. Instead of allowing parking to be a common space, our government taxes for it, and uses those taxes to provide upkeep on that space.
In essence, he is saying that we should control the amount of children that can be born...by controlling the space they are born into. By making that space private, rather than common...so the government would control it. Much of this gets really crazy then, because all family tax breaks would be taken away, and rather, parents would most likely be forced to pay taxes on the resources that were used, and the pollution that was caused, by their children, in the same way that jets would be taxed for polluting airspace and cars ARE taxed for parking spaces downtown.
"Fundamentally the markswoman aims at herself" DT Suzuki