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How important are manners from toddlers to you?Submitted by peculiar old bird on Tue, 04/22/2008 - 5:24pm.
I was going to give a recap of our busy weekend but decided to keep the mundane to myself, this time. I have learned a lot about my son and myself in these past few days. Max has always had a limit to how much activity he can be expected to participate in civilly - as most of us do. Sometimes, however, when his seasons shift and grow, I fall in between the cracks of knowledge about my son. During those times when I am out-of-sync, he gives a lesson to update me. Usually, the lesson comes in the form of a full-blown melt down approximately one hour after the time we should have gone home, as it happened on Saturday. Yes, one full hour, folks. And in case you don’t have children… this is a huge time frame to pick up on signals. Lots of kids have maybe 15 minutes after their “done-time” before they fall apart. So, I've been updated. Dually noted, Maxamilian. Thank you.
I’m of the mindset that both parent and child have to find a way to respect one another’s needs and learning curve. As Max is patient with me when I’m learning life lessons that he teaches, I offer the same respect to him. I don’t expect him to behave in any particular manner other than what comes naturally to him. If he isn’t acting in a way that is socially acceptable (for example, throwing a fit because he can’t have a second ice cream cone), when all is said and done, I don’t just look for ways to correct his behavior. I also look at what I could do in the future to help bring him to the mind-set he needs to get to… like, respecting his play-time limitations. My responsibility in his recent mid-day “melts” is that I unknowingly pushed him to do too many activities and then gave the tired child sugar. Yikes! Hello melt-down, here we come! Oh, and by the way, this past Saturday’s episode was handled very well by me - we made it home without hearing my angry voice. Something else I’ve discovered about myself… I don’t push manners. Its not that I don’t teach the “please and thank-you’s,” it’s more that I don’t enforce them in all situations. It seems humiliating for the child to constantly be corrected in public, like he is being spoken down too. This is just my gut reaction and I know I could be way off on this. Yes, I could be raising a rude-ass-mother-fucker kid. I'm concerned with raising a child who behaves in all the right ways but ignores his own feelings in the process. Or, doesn’t recognize his own feelings. Or, is more concerned with acting correctly than expressing and naming his feelings. I know teaching manners is important, don’t get me wrong. In my family, manner teaching is very casual and most of it is done at home. I don’t mind, however, when other folks gently correct my child in his speech. It’s good for him to know that everyone has different expectations and for him to learn how to navigate through those differences. I figure as he is placed in different situations - school, family, activities and such - he will start to figure out why mommy is always saying, is there another way you can ask me for that?
I'm a little fuzzy on the appropriateness of the terms, Mam’ and Sir. I don’t like them. They seem archaic to me. It makes me think of a time when children were expected to be seen and not heard. It also seems degrading. Again, could be wrong about this. My reaction is probably a testimony to my class, or lack there-of. On Sunday, we all went to Lowery Park Zoo. Hal and I are starting to do a family outing every weekend and are very excited about it. Bella is old enough to enjoy her vision and healed enough to not be distracted by her eczema. Max listens well enough to be enjoyable company and is social enough to play with stranger kids in all environments. Life is so much fun with two children!
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i can def relate to this: I am struggeling with wondering what is the appropriate response anymore i often go back in forth in my own head at when is the right time to say please... yes on, pass the carrots, please... no on... may i have some of your carrots, please. in the second example, the please sounds like a beg! oh my, the details can get all crazy for me because i am a word-person. on a different note, sister, it sounds like you may be having a hard time meeting people you can relate too. you have a lot of stuff going on in your response (a lot of judgmental tudes') that took me by surprise and made me feel like you're really pissed-off about the state of your environment! i also prefer more culturally diverse areas but sadly, i live in one of the most disgustingly segregated areas in the states. they don't build nice playgrounds in the Latino community. I miss my old dwelling grounds, Chicago, for this very reason. I lived in Humboldt Park and we had an awesome playground. A bird does not sing because it has an answer. It sings because it has a song. - Chinese Proverb i have so little time but really wanted to reply. sorry if this is ramble-y and/or disjointed. i've thought a lot about the sir and ma'am thing since we've moved to the south. i was never raised to use it, so it's foreign to me. however, i've had many opportunities to observe it in action and this is the decision i've come to... the content of my daughter wins out over her appearance anytime. i'd rather focus my energy on modeling authentic respectful behavior, then to teach her the robotics of certain words that are supposed to convey respect a.) whether or not respect even deserved and b.) whether or not she is even legitimately being respectful. i recently started serving at a restaurant. there have been several occasions where a kid with genuine sweetness and respect will ask me for a refill or something. but oh lord! watch out if they forget to use the "ma'am"! i have watched parents go ape shit on their kids for not using it, barking "respectful" reminders at their kids when they fail to use them. i've also seen the opposite. snotty ass kids who get away with completely snarky and disrespectful behavior because they threw the "ma'am" in the mix. this is not how i want to raise ms.q and it's definitely not what i want her to equate "respectful behavior" with. i want her to be able to navigate her interactions with people with authenticity as well as respect. i want her to have a deeper understanding of her character and regard for people then to think that just throwing out the approved words is enough. "You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." -Anne Lamott "i want her to be able to navigate her interactions with people with authenticity as well as respect." this is what is most important to me as well. i cringe when i hear a mom correct their child because he didn't say please but everything in the way he asked was kind, genuine, and respectful. i often see a look of sadness come over the kid's face because he WAS being polite, just "failed" once again at remembering the "correct" words. i see this a lot with some of my mama friends and while i don't think anything shitty about them on a personal level, it does make me cringe just a little. A bird does not sing because it has an answer. It sings because it has a song. - Chinese Proverb well said, and as a former waitress, i sympathize with how infuriating the "polite" snarkisms can be.
"if i pass for other than what i am, do you feel safer?" ~ lani ka'ahumanu dragon knows dragon are what i'm going for. i try to model this as well as engage Morrigan in conversations and "teaching moments" about it. that's what was drummed into my head, even if it did take years to sink in, and i think it goes more to the heart of good interpersonal relating than strict formalisms. the formalities of speech are kinda hit and miss for me. i'm a "sir" and "ma'am" person, but generally only in interactions with strangers or playfully with familiars. i haven't asked Morrigan to sir and ma'am, but i have asked for please, thank you, and you're welcome even though i debate with myself about where the lines are around expecting to be treated well and showing gratitude for it. the exchange of patience and learning that you describe with Max resonates with me 'cuz i try to have a similar approach with Morrigan. just the other day, she said something like "I'm being very patient", and i had to laugh. i told her she was and that i appreciated it.
"if i pass for other than what i am, do you feel safer?" ~ lani ka'ahumanu dragon knows dragon "the exchange of patience and learning that you describe with Max resonates with me 'cuz i try to have a similar approach with Morrigan." i'm so happy you noticed that the way you did, sister-friend. A bird does not sing because it has an answer. It sings because it has a song. - Chinese Proverb I think what matters most is modeling the behaviour versus just drilling it into them. If you use please and thank you and are generally respectful of your kids they'll model it back and it'll integrate into their personality. Some kids are so rote with the niceties it sounds like they're reading the pledge of allegiance when they say ma'am or thank you which I almost find ruder than not saying it. You can tell they don't mean it. The ones that don't notice they're doing it tend to have had polite moms rather than drill sergeant moms. Just my two cents anyway:) Manners... Oh yeah, great pics! I'm totally jealous of Max, I want to run in a fountain........ BleuRoo Handcrafted Sweetness I too am a little unsure of the sir and mam thing. I was raised to always say it to adults, was corrected when I didn't. And as a kid I hated it, like most things kids are "made" to do. But now that I'm older, I always use the terms with people older than myself. I guess it's the whole respect your elders thing. I always say it to my parents, just rolls off the tongue. And we are not a "formal" family, we're very comfortable and fun with each other. Like if my mom would say, "Baby, do you have any milk?", I'd just go "Yes mam', just bought some." It's really just a part of where we come from, and I know you are in FL. too, so you hear it all the time. I have friend who's from Cape Cod, and we went there for her wedding. She told us that people would get angry with us if we called them sir or mam'. I thought it was such a weird thing to get mad at, considering that the people who use those terms were taught to use them to show respect. But I do see how they are a throwback to another time, and I'm torn on whether to teach my son to use them religiously. I do like that I use them, and being where we live, it's expected. But I don't like teaching him that people deserve some higher form of respect just because they are older. BleuRoo Handcrafted Sweetness |
I am struggeling with wondering what is the appropriate response anymore. I really hate the way that most kids in my area carry themselves and conduct themselves. Its funny that I jumped a whole socioeconomic "class" system and the kids and their parenst have no class what so ever. Back in my nice little bluecollar community back home, it seemed people prided themselves on the way their children interacted, and there was this underlying set of social standards amongst the children, and they knew not to cross the line for the most part. Out here in climber land where skinny minny perfect looking mom sits on her ass and chats it up on the cellphone with her buddies instead of watching her bratty kids bullying my children, fighting amongst themselves and being all around shitty, I don't know if anymore it makes sense for me to be the better guy. What does that prove? Some of these kids need to be taken down a notch and if their parents are too lazy, busy or self absorbed or too passive and afraid of being authoritarian and it comes at the expense of my kids feelings, I will step in and say something. Its a completly diffrent story with children that know eachother and are comfortable and learning to interact with one another, but in public I am disgusted by what I see, and what I see parents slide because they either don't want to deal with it, or some are just smug assholes with no consideration for anybody elses feelings, so why bother displaying that with their kids?
I like old school respect, and you best believe I am not afraid to have kids that fear me to a certain extent if thats whats going to keep them from being assholes and keep them acting proper. Backtalk was not tolerated in my home, nor could I ever make sarcastic rebuttles at my parent's or any other adults expense and doing so to another child also wasn't an option becuase I was taught that was trashy and beneath anybody with any class. I want to value that and will make sure my children adhear to that, but I'm at a loss because when other kids have already been conditioned that they are most impoartant and coddled and have no real consequences for their behaviors,no genuine respect for their parents what do I do? Let my well behaved children become doormats? Its getting old.
If I ever buy a house in Portland, like I have stated before, I will buy it in the most Mexican neighborhood I can find. I drive out of my way to take my kids to their neighborhoods parks because I never have to worry, their kids have been taught how to behave, have a god time and share, take turns and be friendly. Theres not alot of child psych soup dujour from their parents. I only wish I knew how to learn spanish quicker.
Being strict and having standards and consistantly disciplining children is not being a mean mom. After all they will be adults and its easier to learn that the tail don't wag the dog at three and four instead of twenty three and twenty four.