living with violence
we all do. we live in a culture that celebrates violence and aggressive behavior. I could list some examples like war, pro sports, movies and tv, of course video games. Over and over again we get the message that violence solves problems even though we have multiple experiences that tell us this isn't true. Most of us were spanked as kids and there was a time not that long ago that if you didn't spank your kids you were considered neglectful. I guess my whole point is that I and most of you here are trying to break that cycle of violence, swimming upstream the whole way. There aren't a lot of role models who can give you really concrete examples of how to make changes within yourself that are necessary. There isn't a lot of support in most communities, instead we have a lot of judgment, shame and isolation. Something that happened in my community recently was the provincial gov't spend a huge wad of cash on putting up posters all over the city reminding parents not to verbally abuse or hit their kids while at the same time shut down the parent's 24 hot line that provided support and help. So where is there to turn to? I had a horrible last week where I was overwhelmed, physically exhausted and parenting alone. I got what support and help I could from my family and from my neighbors but still came up short. One day (I all ready told this story in someone else's blog) Sauce jr was being physically aggressive with the Saucette over and over and over again. Nothing I could say to him and no amount of time outs had any effect. When he finally basically gave his little sister a pile driver while I went pee I spanked him. I know I did the wrong thing. I know that I need to find another solution. I am so very sorry and sad that this happened. As soon as it did I started going over who could help me or how I could get a little break for myself safely and there was no one. I don't think that is unusual. I don't qualify for subsidized childcare (of which there is a massive shortage) and I can't afford to pay for it myself. I have mama friends I trade childcare with, but everyone was busy and I don't always comfortable being vulnerable in front of them.
Being a pacifist isn't just not going to war and raising kids in a non-violent way isn't just not hitting them. It is a whole other way of living. Both require huge personal change and growth that takes years, heck a lifetime and there are going to be slip ups a long the way. There is a whole new skill set to learn, emotional risks to take and years of healing. It isn't simple and it isn't easy, but anything worth doing is going to be hard.
I would like to extend my ear to anyone who wants to talk about spanking, violence and anger. Sort of like a non harsh mamas thread. if you don't feel comfortable talking about it here, pm me. Let's be a soft place for each other to fall.
* I'm all fight and no flight *
- mrs. sauce's blog
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instead we have a lot of judgment, shame and isolation."
I think this is often true - both IRL and online. Recently I felt very sad reading some of what was written in p.o.b.'s recent blog about spanking her child. I'd love to have a "safe" place to discuss what really happens in the home - the one I grew up in, the one I am a part of now.
Let me garner some thoughts then come back.
"Macaroni - let me finish! - salad."
"Macaroni - let me finish! - salad."
reading quickly maybe I missed it?
A feature most HipMamas can use (not me, I turned mine off).
oh and above - I meant to write "soft", not "safe".
"Macaroni - let me finish! - salad."
And that confused me, like there was another venue with pm as the initials.
not enough sleep, too many ghosts about (ha ha).
didn't really see any responses that I thought were out of line. Disagreeing is OK, you do it all the time.
Sunflower the unflower
Mom's Tinfoil Hat
Foodie loves Picky
Sunflower the unflower
now did I?
"Macaroni - let me finish! - salad."
the judgment, shame and isolation you were referring to were due to replies on another blog that you thought made someone feel unsafe.
Sunflower the unflower
To clarify: I don't believe anything "unsafe" has happened here or there, although I remain sad at some of what I read. Nowhere did I say anyone was "out of line". I like mrs. sauce's intent of a "soft place to land", as I said below.
I don't feel like expounding on p.o.b.s blog with you further because even in this small instance what I'm saying is being repeated back to me in ways I don't mean at all. I get the inkling we also disagree on a few points and I'm comfortable with that. I enjoy the discussion happening above - everyone's input - and I'd rather stick to that.
Cheers!
"Macaroni - let me finish! - salad."
I think the thing about pacifism, especially when you're trying to break a cycle of violence within a violent culture, is that it's not necessarily a passive thing at all...at least, not on a personal level...because I think it has to be active--actively examining situations, actively examining options, actively examining personal motives, actively examining our responses. We have to evaluate and reevaluate regularly. This applies to parenting and to all of our relationships.
Thank you. That is what is needed so in these situations; a soft place to land...I too struggle with the demands of parenting two rough and rowdy toddlers. Mostly I struggle with the isolation I feel when I am struggling and the judgements come raining down, sometimes my own, most often others. Even friends and my husband seem most willing to "troubleshoot" my parenting. Of course my own conscience takes me for a ride as well. I too want a warm and loving home for my children and I provide that beautifully most of the time but when the demands and stresses start piling up I am not always the person I wish to be. Thank you again for your kindness and graciousness...and that soft place 
The heart has its reasons whereof Reason knows nothing.
- Blaise Pascal
I sort of thought that's what Non Harsh was for? Why the change of venue?
"Macaroni - let me finish! - salad."
doesn't make you violent. Start with being gentle on YOURSELF.
I'm not advocating violence, but I admit that each of my kids got a swat or two when they were little. Sometimes our high-minded ideals don't work in practical application. I think we need to see the difference between using a very effective tool, one that you don't normally use, one that you don't glory in using, one that you aren't likely to use again, and mindless, gorey, sexually charged, specially-effected Hollywood violence.
All little girls should be told they're pretty--even if they aren't.
--Marilyn Monroe
To say that I'm uncomfortable talking about violence, anger and spanking is an understatement. But it all has happened in my house on an regular/irregular basis. I have swatted, pinched, grabbed and in other small ways physically hurt my children. Certainly not every day.
Probably not once a week.
But it does happen and it makes me feel like a failure as a parent. And I don't seem to have the skills to permanently banish these behaviors. It'll be o.k. for 3 weeks then BAM I grab or swat or yank someone away from someone else and my heart breaks again.
It is so hard and I feel like I need more skills to overcome this stuff. I also need to understand how to deal with a challenging child (Devon) in different ways. If any of that get clearer and better because of posting here then it is nothing but a good thing.
I also desperately need not to be judged and torn down by others for admitting my failings. I have to say that I think I'd just leave hipmama permanently if I was vulnerable and honest about this and got destroyed because of it. I'm not saying that you would do this but I still fear it.
seriously - not being passive aggressive or trying to make a point, i need clarification here.
my parenting style with my kids has always been to try to be as gentle as possible 99.98% of the time. However, if the kids, especially when they were too young to reason with, are doing something dangerous to them or others (poking a fork in a light socket, running in the street, pile driving an infant) repeatedly and do not respond to repeated attempts to divert them, a quick swat to the butt is required.
Am i always successful with this? not so much. i might be completely wrong - i just don't know how else to handle parenting in these kinds of extreme situations.
why is hitting *always* bad?
and at the outset i would like to say that these are my opinions and i won't judge another mama for her opinions (unless you are spanking your kid in a public bathroom...then you will get a dirty look from me)
so...for me hitting is bad, being intentionally abusive in anyway is bad...sure there's a line (a big, dark, fat one) between being abusive and disciplining, but for me hitting is bad.
how can i teach my son to be a gentle, loving boy/man if i can't be gentle with him?
i was spanked as a child and i can't even think about it without getting angry and hating my dad. and i don't hate him but i hate that he did that to me...because there were times when he lost control. i do not think that what he did to me constituted abuse but what i do think that instead of calmly, lovingly not sparing the rod...he angrily spanked me with a belt.
it's just too easy to go from anger to spanking to beating to hurting and damaging your child which is why i will never do it.
that said...i have thought about it already. there have already been times when my initial reaction to something Owen does is to think...oh I just want to spank your little butt...but so far i haven't.
i hope this didn't come off as self-righteous...and í'm glad you posted about this saucy. we mamas do need soft and safe places to discuss these issues.
Walking around an
early spring garden-
going nowhere.
-Kyoshi
I have to reply to this..
"i do not think that what he did to me constituted abuse but what i do think that instead of calmly, lovingly not sparing the rod...he angrily spanked me with a belt."
Wow, beating with a belt is abuse, it is not spanking AT ALL. I am sorry you had to go through that mama.
I do understand your point of view since one of my only memories of my father at home (divorced when I was 4 partly due to what he did to me) was one incident where my sis and I were coloring on our bed and a new blanket got colored on. I was singled out and was whipped with a belt (because using a belt is WHIPPING not spanking). I will remember the blind fear and the memory blackout that followed for the rest of my life (though I have to say it wasn't a hard beating, but it was for a 4 year old). Also seeing my mom and sis standing in the doorway feeling helpless. I have since asked my mom for her apology and she has admitted it was the straw that broke the camels back of their marriage.
Sorry...that was a emotional dump there. lol.
But.
I still will spank Ike when he runs into the street. We are talking one to the butt. And I will never equate that with the beating I got in the hands of my father.
Okay all that said, I do understand where you come from on wanting to be as non-violent as possible with your children and I commend you for it.
We could have saved the Earth but we were too damned cheap.~K.V.
my eyes are a little watery right now. it's a terrible memory...yours too. must be tough to think about.
I *think* I have forgiven my dad for it...in part because of the way he was raised and in part because of 25-30 years ago I think this was fairly "normal" behavior.
Walking around an
early spring garden-
going nowhere.
-Kyoshi
I am sure what my dad and your dad had in common was harsh physical treatment from the hands of their fathers. My dad was abused in the old school way that was acceptable. Just hard enough to not leave long term physical injuries, but making them the scariest people when their children crossed the line. I sure as hell didn't get it like he did, but who knows what would have happened if my mom stayed.
I am sure I would have had a few more of those beltings.
I am sorry you are sad. My dad died 12 years ago and this wasn't ever reconciled (or anything else for that matter). I found that asking my mother for her apology was a huge healing step for me. She allowed it to happen, she was partly responsible, she knows it and we can move on.
I haven't forgiven my dad. I have moved on, but forgiveness is usually a 2 sided thing. It requires the inflictor to take responsability for the outcome of his/hers actions.
And if my son tells me his butt whacks messed him up someday. I will apologize too.
We could have saved the Earth but we were too damned cheap.~K.V.
Being whipped is a beating. Being repeatedly spanked is a beating.
I don't spank. My parents did. Usually a swat every once in awhile until they could not longer catch us (or my mom at least after dad split). We'd run like hell as she chased us till we all fell down laughing. My mom could not disipline.
M's turning 4 and she's yet to receive even one, but I cannot compare a swat on the butt for pile driving, stuffing TP down an infant's throat or running into the street and being whipped with a belt as the same thing.
I just can't.
In a way it's like smoking weed. I don't believe smoking weed leads to doing crack. I don't believe a swat on the butt leads to a violent adult. Most of my friends at some point received a hand to the butt and we're all normal, non violent grown ups. Again, these are my thoughts.
Without sounding like a dweeb, but I have watched animals rear their young for many, many years. abuse does not exist, but EVERY and EVERY mammal I've had contact with will *school* their young with their own way of a *swat*. A mama horse may give a sharp kick, a mama dog may grab a pup by the neck and give a good growl and shake for an instant. The babes are fine. they got the message.
Ok, I'm going to go for my daily run with the wolves.
Hope this made some sense.
.
without squeezing or causing pain, and say NO. Why is that less effective?
Then I physically remove them from the threat. Road, light socket, whatever.
If hitting someone over a certain age is always bad, why wouldn't it be bad for our youngest and most vulnerable? Because they are too young to hit back and hurt? When does it become not OK? When you are a teenager? And adult? You can run away fast enough?
Sunflower the unflower
about the example of giving a *swat* in conjunction with, say, barely averting running in the street or, shoving TP down an infants throat and I think, in my mind, what comes into play is not discipline, but total total primal fear. Primal fear of your kid getting hit and killed by a car. Primal fear of finding a sibling dead with a wad of TP in their throat. A life flashes before your eyes (or at least my eyes). That swat at a certain age (usually toddler or young-in') to me, is a gut reaction being caught *in* the moment. It's not about spanking for spilled milk or breaking a toy. I remember having a very large bright red balloon and taking it in the bath as a small child. It popped. I took the popped red balloon and draped it across my throat. My mom passed the bathroom and glanced into the bath and saw, what she thought, to be her child with a slit throat (blood). It was only a second of that thought, so when she reached me and saw up lose it was no danger she swatted my behind, then crumbled into a ball on the floor crying.
I think I've mentioned that I've never spanked or hit my kid (so far) and I work on it quite a few times a week. I do believe when I say to her, "We do not hit" that I have to follow that up with not hitting her. Time outs seem to work or taking things away.
However, I can easily see how sometimes it could happen in *some* cases and I also understand it.
But I was answering another question. I can see how hard it can be to follow the replies, but I was replying to this comment:http://www.hipmama.com/node/32824#comment-248191
The question is, what is wrong with it as a accepted tool of discipline, not a reaction in fear or exhaustion, whatever the heat-of-the-moment rationalization. Some mamas on here (and in my real life, like my sister in law) think spanking is a useful tool for discipline.
Sunflower the unflower
She asked what was wrong with hitting? If nothing's wrong with it, I don't see the need for the discussion at all. I can bow out, however.
Sunflower the unflower
."""She asked what was wrong with hitting? If nothing's wrong with it, I don't see the need for the discussion at all. I can bow out, however""""
I did? I thought I just posted a comment on a primal fear reaction that could come up?
Ack. Total confusion.
(that happened to be below your post, sorry) It was not directed to anyone in particular. Just free thinking as to why I could see "myself* giving a swat in some cases and why I might do it.
I think a definition needs to be laid out. In my opinion a spank on the butt is not abusive because it doesn't cause physical pain. If the kid is repeatedly not responding to verbal direction or endangering someone, then a single spank on the butt seems like a reasonable way to get their attention. It won't cause permanent trauma or become a painful childhood memory.
"Spanking" with the intention of causing pain IS abusive. Hitting with a belt is abusive. Hitting used as anger release for the adult is abusive.
I really don't think the two situations are comparable.
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well i sort of thought that maybe we needed a new title or something. I am happy with non harsh but again, given the last thread of p.o.b. I thought maybe we needed to do something different?
* I'm all fight and no flight *