When does a mistake get to be forgiven?? how long should a woman be punished for fighting back?
So I posted earlier about some personal shit and I took a comment personally and I felt to exposed and I had to take it down. I recognize that that is my stuff.
10 years ago I made mistakes. I was a victim and things transpired.
When you fight back in a domestic violence situation with a man way bigger than you should you go to jail?
What if you had emotional issues that were not stablized? A decade is a long time, issues can certainly be addressed...
Can people change? Do you believe in second chances? Are we born fundamentally good with an ability to return to the essence of being that we were born as?
BTW- why would the employment rights of people who are CURRENTLY USING DRUGS be defended here and the redemptive value of one incident 10 years ago be held up as the sum total of a person's character?
"I don’t have to keep up some great pretention I’m the most dignified, eloquent, elegant, perfect, smart-thinking, kind, generous person. I’m just a plain old human with a whole bunch of flaws.”-- Lily Tomlin
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So I posted earlier about some personal shit and I took a comment personally and I felt to exposed and I had to take it down. I recognize that that is my stuff.
I'm trying to be more like that, good on ya. But anyway, I hope it wasn't my comment.
I think the first step is forgiving yourself. The second is being persistent with authorities who may or may not want to let an incident die. It sounds like you've done the former, but maybe worry about the latter so much that it's affecting the former. That sucks. But nearly any authority can be persuaded if you calmly state your case (again and again). And don't get mad. And have confidence that your idea is strong.
I don't believe people change so much as learn and develop to overcome their initial tendency. Like the fundamental nature is still there, but the rational mind puts it in better circumstances for the most part and when bad circumstances can't be helped the rational mind learns how to compensate for a tendency that's caused harm in the past. If the person does the work and sees a reason.
As far as going to jail for hitting a much bigger man, see that's exactly the sort of thing I'd end up have happen to me as a younger woman. I was taught a lot of gender straighjacketed bullshit that I'm still trying to get over so I can see that happening to me for sure. Society's members teach you one thing but society itself holds you accountable to a different standard. It's really fucked up, and I'm sorry it messed with you. This story solidifies my new intent to never spank my children anymore because it's just simpler to say hitting's always wrong. That way hopefully I won't pass the message that it's sometimes ok/necessary when it's illegal.
***the United States is one of only four out of 168 countries studied to not have some form of paid family leave for new moms. We join Swaziland, Papua New Guinea, and Lesotho in not having that policy in place. ***
I think all we can ask ourselves is to learn from our mistakes and try to use them to become better people. I didn't read the other thread, but my initial thoughts are that no one can ever step into your shoes and say they would have or wouldn't have acted the same way in a similar situation. In the not too distant past I did something really stupid without really realizing the implications of my actions until too late. I was deeply depressed and stressed over some very valid and painful issues/experiences and at the time was trying to care for everyone around me except myself. When I hit bottom my relationship with certain people was permanently severed, but the people who know me and love me best understood my mistake to be exactly that- and they didn't use that incident to judge me or change the way their perception of me. We're all human and sometimes we need to be reminded of that from time to time. I try to be mindful of my own flaws when it comes to others and judge them based on who they are and who they desire to be instead of who they used to be or mistakes they have made in the past.
You just reminded me- I've been wanting to pick up this book called The Lucifer Effect by Philip Zimbardo. It's about his Stanford Prison Experiment in the early 70's. Here's a little bit about it from LuciferEffect.org
_____________________________________________
"In this book, I summarize more than 30 years of research on factors that can create a "perfect storm" which leads good people to engage in evil actions. This transformation of human character is what I call the "Lucifer Effect," named after God's favorite angel, Lucifer, who fell from grace and ultimately became Satan.
Rather than providing a religious analysis, however, I offer a psychological account of how ordinary people sometimes turn evil and commit unspeakable acts. As part of this account, The Lucifer Effect tells, for the first time, the full story behind the Stanford Prison Experiment, a now-classic study I conducted in 1971. In that study, normal college students were randomly assigned to play the role of guard or inmate for two weeks in a simulated prison, yet the guards quickly became so brutal that the experiment had to be shut down after only six days."
Thanks!
***the United States is one of only four out of 168 countries studied to not have some form of paid family leave for new moms. We join Swaziland, Papua New Guinea, and Lesotho in not having that policy in place. ***
I didn't read the other thread, so I'm just replying to what you've said here.
well, here's the thing. If the guy's kicking your ass at the moment, and you are defending yourself in the moment, then, hell no, you shouldn't go to jail. If, however, the guy isn't kicking your ass at the moment, but you execute a--how would Bush put it?-- pre-emptive strike, then, yeh, it's assault.
I know, I know, even if he kicks your ass on a regular basis, and there's a lull in the action, so you go for it, it's still like that. Unless you have some documentation that he was kicking your ass regularly, then you might use some sort of battered spouse defense angle, which is (IMHO) valid, but hard to prove.
Violence breeds violence. When I was with my ass-kicking FAX, I was a much more violent person, as well. The stress, the fear, the violence itself, the anticipation of violence, all that made me more likely to break things or to react in a very violent way towards him. I'm not in a violent sitch now, so there's waaay less yelling, breaking of items, and fisticuffs in general in my life.
Have I returned to a more natural state? Uh, I think so. I'm much more balanced and centered and happy, and that feels natural. Lifting the violence off my shoulders was the beginning, but it took a lot of time to get more healthy.
All little girls should be told they're pretty--even if they aren't.
--Marilyn Monroe
I read the earlier post and I think I know waht reply you are talking about. I think the problem lies not in what you've done, per se, but the really vauge definition of Domestice Violence. For example. A person in my family was in a bad situation with her husband. They were separated and he was stalking her, she got a rprotection order, he got one too, then he moved in across the street so he could "watch her" and their 2 year old son. She was 8 months pregnant and they were sorta speaking to each other (even though they were BOTH breaking the protecion order) because he had HER truck and she needed it sometimes for dr visits and such. One day she called and left a message saying she was taking the truck to take their son (who had an infection in his bits) to the doctor. This is something they had previously done, so leaving a message wasn't even something she thought would be a problem. She walked across the street and took the truck. He decided to set her up. He called the cops, reported it stolen and when she got back home he had the cops waiting for her. Because she took the truck and it was on "HIS" Property (even though it was parked directly across the street from HER building), and though it was in HER name, the protection order was violated and one of them had to go to jail. She was taken for the above reasons and because her FAX could prove she violated the protection order because he had a Voice mail on his phone. A DIRECT VIOLATION. I won't go into the really fucked up 24 hours in jail or how her son was litterally dragged from her arms SCREAMING (Or how he remembers it 6 years later) but I will say, she now has DV charge on her record.
It sounds like your situation was similar in that it wasn't about beating the shit outta someone, it was about a bad situation made worse by laws that are archaic and ineffective.
You are a good person, a good mama and what you did 10 years ago in a bad situation should not necessaarily be used against you now. Now, if you had killed someone, or molested them or had a TRACK record of DV assaults, that is one thing, but it sounds like it was a mental health issuse and mental health CAN change. It CAN be improved and most people suffer mental health issues under duress, just becasue they aren't hauled off to jail for it, or have it documented doesn't mean it's not happening. I'd much rather have someone that has documented MH issues in their past, and documented IMPROVENT now, than someone who is harboring unchecked alcoholism, or child abuse, caring for my kids.
You never know what someone is hidiing inside, what their past was like or what they are capable of. using a 10 year old DV situation to judge is silly IMO. The world is nover that black and white. The fact that you have training and schooling and that you'e proven you are responsible speaks volumes IMO. I think you need to see what you can do about getting that info off your record and/or finding out how much info is needed when "reporting" that on a job app.
My advice, see a laywer about your sitch, it may not be as bad as you think.
vibes and love,
lm
see, now this is hard because you took the thread down and now i don't know how much you'd want me to reference. i don't want to put anything back up here that you weren't comfortable with being in the other thread.
but i know it was my comment you took personally. you were considering lying on your application about the domestic arrest, and wanted to know how that would be received by the parents of the children you could be caring for. the lie. i said that i wouldn't have anyone with a domestic violence arrest caring for my child, whether or not the lied about it. i didn't understand it as a rhetorical question, so i answered it.
but that doesn't say that i wouldn't forgive that person, or that i hold it as the sum of your character. just that i wouldn't let them care for my child. i wouldn't let various other forms of criminals care for my child either. yet other kinds of crimes don't bug me at all. i answered personally, because that's how i thought the question was asked.
it also doesn't mean that i think you should have gone to jail. as you described the situation, you definitely should not have. you should have been brought to a hospital. if they didn't do that ten years ago, they failed you.
"One of the few good things about modern times: If you die horribly on television, you will not have died in vain. You will have entertained us." Kurt Vonnegut
i wouldn't assume that someone with a DV arrest is untrustworthy, or even that they were convicted. there are, theoretically, people with an arrest like this and are still trustworthy. it's one piece of information, in the myriad things that make me trust a person. which, it goes without saying, are different than what would make you or anyone else trust someone with their kid. all i would do, in choosing someone to care for my child, is i would see that arrest and move on to the next person. there are too many variables in determining whether someone is trustworthy, you can't examine each one in detail. i wouldn't have anyone with a DWI either, if it involved me leaving my child with him/her off site from emergency services. that's me. i would find someone without a DWI, on the off chance he/she would have to transport my child somewhere. those are two examples. we all have our criteria that we look for, that makes us move on to the next person. for me, DV is big. i would be friends with someone with that history, but i would not leave my child with them.
however, if i worked for an agency, and in charge of finding the best candidates, i feel i would have an obligation to the applicants to look exhaustively at their history and consider the variables, and do my best to place that applicant in the position where her talents can benefit the clients the best. so i would read the reports, consider time elapsing with no violence, consider getting the degree and all that.
i've tried to give the most honest answer i could. sorry if it's uncomfortable for you. but DV warrants every bit of stigma it has, and more. DV kills women and children, and needs to be addressed with the same seriousness as alcoholism and drunk driving is. it's a public health matter, as i see it.
"One of the few good things about modern times: If you die horribly on television, you will not have died in vain. You will have entertained us." Kurt Vonnegut
I think it's a shame that you are paying for mistakes you made ten years ago. I've seen you grow so much over the years, you've worked so hard and gone through a multitude of shit and I think you have such a tremendous heart. I hope that whatever is going on right now can be worked through. It isn't fair, and no, I don't think you should have to continue to pay for that stuff. I think you are a different person now.
But I read these responses over and was struck by something you've said:
"you have every right to feel the way you do as do I but it is my FEAR that everyone feels the way that you do."
I think this is the crux of the matter for you and it makes me wonder - why are you afraid? Do you feel this about yourself? Do you believe you've changed from who you were when you were both a victim and a perpetrator? Ar you afraid that deep down you're still the same person? Have you forgiven yourself for whatever part you played? (I don't need to know what that part was; how big, how small - that's between you and God / Goddess / whoever / your conscience and perhaps a well-trusted friend or counselor).
Again, I didn't read the other thread, but if anyone's thinking what happened was "the sum total of [your] character" it might be you that has that fear. If you don't have that fear, than it seems like a mere annoyance that others may choose to respond with blind prejudice or at least censure based on your disclosure.
Hope that made any sense...
"Macaroni - let me finish! - salad."
"Macaroni - let me finish! - salad."
When I read that account, I see a lot of pain and a lot of hurt. I see you taking responsibility for your part and recognizing how others hurt you as well. I also am a survivor of partner abuse although I was very young (14 - 18) and never fought back or instigated with blows (I instigated with words though) - so in that way, I understand drama (I think some minority of people see "drama" and are scared of it or feel better than those who have it). If I was your potential employer, this story in all its glory would not preclude me hiring you.
When you talk about "cut and dry explanation", do you mean to any potential employers or someone who might see your record? Or do you mean an explanation to yourself? I think what you wrote here is well-communicated.
What is CODA?
"Macaroni - let me finish! - salad."
So, um, are we talking about whether or not you should feel compelled to share incredibly personal and intense information with a complete stranger in the event of getting hired, or are we talking about a domestic violence charge in so far as its validity and the neccesity for you to your conviction?
The system which is used to define criminals, prosecute and punish them is deeply fucked up and entrenched in racism, classism, misogyny, homophobia, and transphobia. It is not some lofty institution of justice and a conviction for anything doesn't neccesarily mean fuck all. I want to repeat that, cause I'm feeling it very strongly right now. A conviction doesn't neccesarily mean fuck all, cause the people making the rules and doling out the punishments are people raised and working and to varying extents invested in a thoroughly fucked up "justice" system.
The way that the public consents to expose and violate the privacy of people convicted of crimes really pisses me off. Cause doing so means that we "believe" in the criminal justive system. Which, to me, is a lot like saying we "believe" in racism, classism, and misogyny. (And we do, in a number of ways that we'll have to spend the rest of our lives unpacking, but I digress.)
You decide whether or not you committed a crime that needs to be disclosed. If it's not on your record, it is only your moral imperative driving this issue. You don't owe it to the public or anyone but yourself to decide whether or not you need to share this part of your life with anyone.
No, I dont think you should have gone to jail. I think you should have been taken into protective custody, as you were discussing harming yourself.
I also think you are amazing. You have made changes so huge, so wonderful... Think back even just three years mama. Look at how far you've come. I'm so proud of you!
Ya know what? If you think that your arrest and conviction were bullshit and if it won't show up on a background check then don't disclose it. I wouldn't. There's a reason that things like that are only on your record for a certain amount of time.
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I would agree with you now- hitting is wrong. Period. Violence is wrong. And unless you are fighting for your life try as hard as you can to get away. Walk away, do not engage.
I have learned from my mistakes and what is being looked for is repeat offenders, a pattern of behavior.
"I don’t have to keep up some great pretention I’m the most dignified, eloquent, elegant, perfect, smart-thinking, kind, generous person. I’m just a plain old human with a whole bunch of flaws.”-- Lily Tomlin