Waldorf vs. Montessori?
I just need the low-down. I understand the theories, but how do they translate into the classroom?
Likes/dislikes? Opinions? Advice?
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The subject is S's school situation. As I mentioned in a previous blog, after our trip we really saw some behaviors in S that we worried about: insecure, quiet, unsure, out of balance. We think school is the problem. It is supposed to be Montessori, but it isn't. I don't think there is any positive discipline & I think they are really hard on the little ones when they have an accident (pee or poo). She has said all week she doesn't want to go to school, that they are mean, that she is scared & doesn't like it. Tonight she tells DH that she loves her teachers & wants to go to school.
I am going with my gut. She has been loving, singing, happy, easier to manage, playful with E. Here are my questions:
-is it this school or school in general (she is 3 & goes from 8:30 - 12)
-if it is this school, should I go Waldorf or Montessori? I am more a Piaget person myself, but can't find a Piaget inspired school.
Insight? Advice? Suggestions?
Maybe find a school that uses Emergent Curriculum? Or if you can fnd a Reggio Emilia school, that might be a good fit.
The asserted "type" of school is not as important as the people who run the school and care for your child. We have used Montessori. While our Montessori is similar to to Waldorf, the other is a typical conservative private K-8. Just keep that in mind and follow your gut when you mee the people to whom you entrust you children. The name the school claims is not as important as the people, especially for our young children.
Thanks. It is like searching for a needle in a haystack! Her school right now is Montessorri, but only in name.
but it is smart to know where you lean and what you want. I was super duper particular about the schools though 'cause in college town california where people like to think they are really liberal there are a shit ton of schools that claim to be montessori because they have wooden toys but have no association with montessori or the curriculum or values.
I busted ass finding the only one (out of 7 or so) that was accredited. Funny, too, 'cause it is the cheapest of all the so-called montessori and my 2.75 year old can count to 50, knows her continents, colors, and most shapes.
Like someone else said it si much more important to know the people than the curriculum
"If nothing else, life in the suburbs promised that you might go from day to day without finding shit in our hair." ~ David Sedaris
"If nothing else, life in the suburbs promised that you might go from day to day without finding shit in our hair." ~ David Sedaris
but in the end, I chose Montessori. I mainly love the artistic element of Waldorf, and the focus on imaginative fantasy play. For awhile there, I read all the books I could on the subject and had a bunch of the toys. But in the end, the "real world" kicked in. My daughter had no interest in the Waldorf toys. Also, she had been "reading" since she was a year old. I would find her in bed with 25 books sprawled around her. She has always loved books, and I couldn't see waiting until she was 7 to actually learn to read them. I also learned that although the kids aren't required to be "Anthroposophists", the teachers are. Maybe I read that one wrong, but I don't think so.
The director of a school is so important. When I finally visited the Montessori school I chose, I was blown away by her. And I love the school's setting - a beautiful wooded lot as opposed to the asphalt jungle that passes for most schools out there today. I also love the classrooms - the elementary age kids have couches and tables instead of row upon row of desks. My daughter's teacher is amazing, and my daughter is thriving.
But if I had visited a Waldorf school that had impressed me as much as this Montessori school did, I wouldn't have been opposed to it. Like I said, both schools have merit, and to me, are infinitely better than "No child left behind" public schools.
montessori seems to encourage children to learn as they move around the room while waldorf has sit down classes, even if its sewing or knotting, etc.
but in terms of disipline, waldorf is gentle, especially during the early years. i also like how waldorf encourages each childs individuality and the gifts that each person has.
i am a bit biased though as a waldorf graduate 1-12.
but supposedly, kids are discouraged from wearing colorful clothes. Plus, you are apparently expected to follow it at home. The ideas are great, but I don't follow anything 100%. I like to make my own rules, etc based on what works for us. I am not going to take away S's Dora doll! Also, the theories feel very religious to me, is this true in practice?
have been at a Steiner school for 5yrs and though there are religous aspects to some things, I really appreciate that it's treated like stories. My son is in 3rd grade and they spent the 1st part of the year studying bible stories and this had made me nervous for years... but now that's it's done and over with, I realize that they were treated just like stories. Just like last year in 2nd grade, they studied fables. And next year, they will study myths. I feel no push for religion and find that I don't even talk with my son about religous stuff (I want him to make his own decisions), but he asks these really open minded questions because of things he's learned at school. For example, just a few weeks ago he said: mama, are you a christian? and I said no, are you? and he said "nope" in this way that said he was not interested in the idea at all.
Anyway, as for the colors... that's not true of anything I know. I find the school to be very colorful, actually. They do not like black because there is a belief that "true" black is not something that exists in nature. Colors are just fine, but at our school they can't wear anything with pictures or words on their clothes. This is mostly to keep mainstream media out of the school, and I really like this rule.
Check out my daily photo journal:
http://ocim.livejournal.com/
It helps to hear from parents who have experience with this. Theories are great, but I want to really understand the way schools work b.c I don't want to pull her out again, you know?
can you expand on that point, please? this is one of the things i found very off-putting about waldorf schools when i was researching schools for my dd, and i'm curious to know the explanation put forward for it by that school of thought. what leaps into my head when i see that statement is well, clear and obvious examples to the contrary like coal, shale, volcanic rock, panthers, black labradors, my cat, and the like, but i'm sure there must be something to the assertion i'm missing 'cuz it couldn't just be that flatly unsupportable, right?
"if i pass for other than what i am/do you feel safer?" ~lani ka'ahumanu
www.walkingthewalls.blogspot.com
"dragon knows dragon
"if i pass for other than what i am, do you feel safer?" ~ lani ka'ahumanu
dragon knows dragon
I did say that "supposedly" this was the belief because I wasn't sure. I just researched it for a second and realized that the real belief is that there is no life in true black. This is the quote I found:
"Now submerge yourself in black; you are completely surrounded by black--in this black darkness a physical being can do nothing. Life is driven out of the plant when it becomes carbon. Black shows itself alien to life, hostile to life; when plants are carbonized they turn black. Life, then can do nothing in blackness. And the soul? Our soul life deserts us when this awful blackness is within us.
Black represents the spiritual image of the lifeless."
I'm guessing that since so much is based on nature and they consider black a dead color, they find it inappropriate for the younger kids to use the color in their artwork.
That's the best I can do for now. I personally don't care that they don't use black in the classroom - I don't even know if my kids even notice or care themselves. I certainly let them use the color at home.
but the more i hear about this, the more alienated and disturbed i get. carbon is the essential ingredient for much of the known life in the universe, but black is a dead color in nature? and what about my black cat? or the black depths of space without which we'd all be stuck back in that unbanged state when everything occupied the same minute space? this is just too bizarre and nonsensical for my rationalist self.
of course, that's all really a footnote to the anti-literacy approach which totally puts me off since i can't remember not being able to read, cherish books, and already share that passion with my daughter.
to each, absolutely, and in light of that, i'm gonna try to stop poking at this subject.
"if i pass for other than what i am/do you feel safer?" ~lani ka'ahumanu
www.walkingthewalls.blogspot.com
"dragon knows dragon
I am difficult to offend. I encourage people to ask questions about things that they are unsure of - even if I can't answer them.
But I do have to say about the reading thing - I don't know about that one. That's all we do in this house. We read chapter books everynight and they read all day. Ds, in 3rd grade, brings home books from the school library every week.
So I don't understand.
we're looking into waldorf for caleb (7). i know there has been issues brought up here with the guy (Rudolf Steiner), but so far we still like it. we're going for a tour in the new year and hopefully we'll have some more of our questions answered.
i think she found a blog!!!! and now for the pictures
What kind of issues? Where is Caleb now?
http://www.hipmama.com/node/28431
"Step off my big ass."
- Anthromom
I wondered how I missed it, but we were on our horrible vacation! Interesting stuff. The more I read, the more afraid I am of it all. I don't know what to do.
he's in a public school. i hope the link helped. i'd never heard anything negative about waldorf until it was brought up here. we're still thinking about putting him in it though - is that bad??
i think she found a blog!!!! and now for the pictures
because i like what i hear/read about waldorf (exceppt for that recent thread here - holy yikes!), and several of my most creative, lovely friends were waldorf educated, and my best friend from high school teaches waldorf. but when i called the one near my house to schedule a tour recently, they asked me why i was interested. i told them all of that and also because my BD and I both work in the entertainment industry (we're in Los Angeles, for maude's sake, who doesn't around here?!) and since our daughter is exposed to so much electronic music/film/video equipment and computers, i was thinking that waldorf might be a really decent balance to all of that. but the woman flat out told me, "well all of that is just going to have to stop. you'll have to remove all that from your home environment." and i'm like. "huh? i'm supposed to tell BD to stop working from home? i'm supposed to stop making my stupid little short films on my Mac in the family room? our livelihood, which is completely rooted in creativity is not congruent with waldorf?" maybe it was just this school, but wtf?!
that waldorf is strict about media. I find that they are more strict about younger kids and the influence that media has on them then the older kids.
I know plenty of people who have media as a main part of their lives and still have their kids in waldorf schools. The trick? Just don't talk about how much they get at home because of your job. My partner is a record producer, so the kids hear some of that stuff on a daily basis. their papa runs the local radio station as well. There is a balance that can be found. It is also very obvious to the waldorf teacher which kids get too much media influence outside of school that effects them because they play and learn noticably different then the other kids - this is where the concern comes in.
Once, when my kids spent a week at grandma's and watched a bunch of tv, their teacher pulled me aside after they were back in school for a week and said is everything okay with J? She is not playing the same as she was 2 weeks ago and I'm concerned. I was surprised she noticed such a difference, but I guess it was obvious to her.
Try not to be too discouraged by the diehard waldorf people with kids grown and gone who don't fully understand what it's like to raise a kid in today's society, yet run the schools and become your first impression of the school. I would talk to other parents at the school and get a feel for what it's like. Going on a tour of the school could be a great place to start as well.
I used to let my kids watch videos before they started going to waldorf schools, but I stopped soon after I realized the difference it made. It's never to late to change your ways. But if you are interested in the education, I say figure out what kind of changes you might (or might not) need to make and what things are just part of your life that are just going to have to work.
For some people, no media is just too much, and that's fine... but remember that it's just one aspect of the waldorf education.
I'm aways sorry when people speak to the wrong people and get the wrong impression.
Ok so I went to Waldorf from 1st to 6th grade in the 70s & early 80s and let me tell you it's a cult. Anything that attempts to remove people from the "real" world, place them in some sort of pseudo-utopia which fabricates a sense of security, require devotion through strict adherence to rules that were set in place by some outdated loon with questionable moral backgrounds is plain and simple...a cult. Parents become brainwashed. Children become sheltered from the cruel evil world.
I learned the other day from someone on this list about a concept of cognitive dissonance and I think it applies very well to Waldorf. When has running away from problems ever been the right solution? Well somehow parents that are entrapped by the Waldorf allure have convinced themselves that throwing their socially awkward children into a bubble will somehow benefit them. I think being a proactive parent and teaching coping skills is much more effective.
Listen to this. My husband's aunt moved and is frantically searching for a Waldorf High School near her because this is what she had to say about her children: "J and H have been so protected from the outside world so far so any move into the mainstream will come with a high price to pay." I think I would have to punch myself daily if I allowed my children to be so out of it. Does she even realize the weight of what she said? Now what happens when her children are 18...job done? Throw them out to the wolves unequipped? Geezz...how can people not see this?
I understand that some public schools are very scary and I am in no way trying to minimize that horror, but sometimes I think parent overreact and shirk their own responsibilities to teach their children. Why to parents think that all the education and social development happens in the classroom? My thought is that the majority of learning happens in the home. For example my kindergartener came home all smiles the first week and then she was literally crying when I picked her up. Apparently some bully type girls in her class were not playing with her and making her stop play with things that they wanted and threatening to not play with her outside if she didn't do as they say. Some people told me to do nothing, some said talk to the teacher, the parent. Well I opted to talk to my husband and the two of us talked with my daughter and we gave her some skills to deal with girls like that...each day she tried what we told her and what do you think happened? The girls no longer bug her... in fact they want to play with her and sometimes she doesn't even want to play with them. I know my situation was probably mild but I was able to parent my child through a tough situation...in addition to teaching my child blow off techniques I also taught her empathy for the "problem" children because they come from tough homes.
I want my child to fit into the world and have her own flare and it is entirely possible in public school, you just have to remember that school teaches academics and provides the social platform...you show your child how to socialize (in fact don't most children learn this already from emulating you from age 0-5?)
One more thing...don't underestimate the power for extracurricular activities. My daughter has been in dance since she was 3-1/2 and also swimming. I am going to add sport this summer and was thinking of karate. All of these events really get the child out there in the world participating in life.
Hope my anti-bubble advice helps, I know I probably will piss off some people...but hey I lived it and I am not the only one who criticizes Waldorf...even my old teacher has not so nice things to say about it.
This post is really negative. I'm not going to say it pissed me off at all, because it doesn't - this is an opinion and I will of course respect it. What I'm wondering is - what about your experience at this particular waldorf school was so awful that makes you feel that it was a cult??
I have many friends that have gone completely through Steiner schools and they are doing more amazing things than alot of the people I went to high school with. The Steiner kids were the ones who graduated and were out - like in other parts of the country or world, fully adapted and doing inspired things. I wish that I had had that ability, but I didn't
I have never experienced the cult side of this education, but I can see how someone might see it that way. There are so many communities associated with Steiner schools and often when people from these community move, they try to move to similar communities to find like minded people. Near almost every Steiner school, there is always a camp hill. Camp hills are beautiful anthopisophical farming communities for handicap people. There is also usually a biodynamic farm nearby. I guess this can seem cult-ish to some, but I see it as a great community.
Yes, some things that Rudolf Steiner taught is outdated and somethings are undated. Somethings I agree with and somethings I don't - just like with any education, IMO. To me, the good WAY outweighs the bad.
My kids are sheltered from very little. We talk about everything and they really love their school. We talk about public school and that someday they might decide they want to go there. Their parents are covered in tattoos and for 5yrs I dated women. My SO is a hiphop producer and works out of the house. DD does ballet and DS does baseball, takes drumming classes and hopes to do aikido soon. They could go to public school on Monday and though they might not like it, they would adjust just fine - because of the way they've been taught up until now.
I will gladly take your point of view as just one point of view, but it definately sounds a bit biased and judgemental to me. That's ok, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm just sorry you have such a negative view on something that I see as being such a wonderful tool for my own children.
but why is your positive perspective on waldorf unbiased and nonjudgmental, but the less shiny perspective of the mother you are responding to is "biased and judgmental"? you both have formed opinions based on your own experiences, so what makes one biased and one bias-free?
"if i pass for other than what i am/do you feel safer?" ~lani ka'ahumanu
www.walkingthewalls.blogspot.com
"dragon knows dragon
it does seem that I feel that way. I guess I just feel really open minded about all schools, but think this education is best for my own kids. I guess cause I'm not going around saying that public school is evil or that montessori is something else, I feel like I am simply giving my opinion on my experience. That, in itself can be biased at times (though I myself went to both catholic and public schools growing up), but I don't want to push my opinion on anyone... yet I was feeling that post was really negative because when I read between the lines I read "waldorf schools are cults and will put your kids in a bubble so don't do it".
I personally hate getting invovled with these touchy subjects - I truly mean no harm to anyone and honor everyone's decisions in parenting. Only a parent knows what's best for thier child.
If you can somehow keep your kid in touch with the outside world (which is totally against the Waldorf rules) then it would be better for the child. We had a girl in our class who's parents didn't throw out the TV, they still had normal toys (everything wasn't pale pastels)...I always LOVED going to her house. The dad was a successful lawyer so I think they gave a lot of money and the school didn't bug them much about their "mainstream" ways. I was the "poster child" for the school, they used me and my work as examples because I did so well. My mom followed the rules to a T and then some ...and as I got older I craved "normal" so badly. My self-esteem a little whacked...school or parent, I don't know, so intertwined. My parents were not as awesome as you. You obviously see the importance of a variety of life experiences and cultural exposures.
But, don't you know lots of artistic people that are fun, successful and brilliant who didn't go to Waldorf? I do. Most of the people that I know that went to Waldorf hated it on hindsight. As a kid we probably were ok with it. It's as you get older and when you leave that you realize it's weird and now you're weird. My good friend that I met in third grade at Waldorf said she recently met two other Waldolf people, one from Germany and one from San Francisco and they were not happy with their education, one couldn't read by 6th grade and got pulled out. Both said they would never put their kids in that program. What we really need is a follow up on Waldorf alumni...a study so to speak...that would be interesting. I could be the minority for all I know. And also maybe some schools are more strange then others. They were anti-left-hand back then are they still? What's up with that? Also what if a kid wants to read? My daughter is 6 in a month and can already write because she wants so...she's not pushed and her imagination is not stifled.
Yes, I am totally biased - I went to Waldorf. I wish I loved it, that would be nice, but I resent it. I hated my integration into the "real" world in 7th grade. I hated feeling so left out. It took years and years for me to conquer insane shyness that I did not have before..total waste of time and such torture. I did ultimately become absorbed into a cool alternative crowd, I guess I was weird enough for them and a little sponge for pop-culture.
Why can't Waldorf just be a cool school focusing on arts and storytelling without the seclusion and a little more academics? That would be awesome. The seclusion is my main grip.
when i was researching school options for my dd, and remembered it reading just now: http://www.waldorfcritics.org/
"if i pass for other than what i am/do you feel safer?" ~lani ka'ahumanu
www.walkingthewalls.blogspot.com
"dragon knows dragon
what about not teaching kids to read until 4th grade? is this a waldorf myth? my friend who went to waldorf through junior high said she was discouraged from reading until then. was that just her school or is this typical?
and who has something to say about montessori? good, bad, whatever you got?
I don't know about 4th grade.
I know that the reading later thing really gets under people's skin, especially as public school teached sooner and sooner.
This is what I've seen:
In 1st grade (dd is there now), they teach ALL about the letters of the alphabet. They put more focus on learning each letter and everything about it to be able to read in 2nd grade then I've ever seen anywhere.
To answer someone's question somewhere else in this thread: If a child has learned to read on their own at home before 1st or 2nd grade, that's fine. It's understood that some kids learn faster or slower than others. The kids that can read are treated just like all the other kids. This is one way it's great that they have the same teacher for 8 yrs - the teacher gets to know each individual child and how they learn. Of course, they have subject teachers as well. In 1st grade they also learn spanish, german and how to knit and play the recorder.
2nd grade is when they learn to read, if they haven't already.
By 3rd, if they don't have reading down really well (like my son), they are put in an extra class to focus on getting the reading off the ground. I can say, my son's reading has improved this first half of the year amazingly. He now reads chapter books outloud to dd all the time.
ANYWAY, I don't mean to be the spokesperson for a waldorf education - there is certianly PLENTY that I don't know and can't answer about it. I am simply going by my experience for my kids at one particular school - I did not go to a Steiner schoolmyself.
I would give info on motessori, but I know very little about it (not enough to share positively, anyway).
for all the opinions. I have been reading & reading about Waldorf & while on the surface it seems gentle, I worry. I may go look at one & tour it. I will ask VERY specific questions. This is like searching for a needle in a haystack! I know, it really is the school & the teachers that make or break it. Normally, I really like Montessori & yet S had a horrible experience.
BTW, when DH called to let the directer know that S would be leaving she basically said that worked well for her b/c she had another child to put in her spot...as an afterthought she said, 'of course we'll miss her'. DH asked if she'd like to meet with us this week to discuss the situation & she said it was not necessary. Well, if we had any doubts about pulling her out, the director answered all of them with her reaction.
I am going to talk to my pediatrician & see if she has insight. Also, I'll contact the dept of ed at the local university & see if they can direct me.
Overall, German schools support mediocraty. Kids shouldn't be too good or too bad. They need to follow the rules/formulas, etc. It is sickening. Plus, cheating is common place. DH teaches in the school system, so we see first hand.
I am so sad. S told me tonight that we are going to look for a new school where the teachers are nice. She misses playing with kids, she misses all the fun. Hmm.
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seem to exist here. At least not in this region. It is either traditional, Montessori or Waldorf.