am i nuts? isn't 60K a year in CLEVELAND a lot?
so this lady was on the radio bitching about having to give at the holidays, how everyone makes her feel like crap about not giving (she does not donate to anything for any reason)-citing that she was POOR. she was too POOR to give even five dollars, that it was a real hit to HER family, etc...and the host was commiserating, saying "everyone does what they can" etc...until she reveals her salary as 60K a year. in cleveland ohio (believe me, i know there is a huge difference across our country. i would say that would equal at least double in NYC or LA). now, i don't say this is a fortune, or enough to retire, but isn't that enough to not consider yourself Poor? it rubbed me so the wrong way. am i nuts here? i work with clients who make 5 bux and hour. that is poor. that is not liveable. that is 10K a year. sheesh.
that woman is nuts, and she is exhibiting one of my pet peeves - calling herself poor when she is no where near it. if mamaneen ran the world, there would - well, okay, there wouldn't be poverty or extreme gaps in access to resources, but if there still was {maybe 'cuz ann coulter was battling me for control?} - be a perspective fairy that would appear when people said stupid shit like that and whisk them away to live for a year on minimum wage. then maybe they'd be honest about this shit . . .
"if i pass for other than what i am/do you feel safer?" ~lani ka'ahumanu
www.walkingthewalls.blogspot.com
"dragon knows dragon
"if i pass for other than what i am, do you feel safer?" ~ lani ka'ahumanu
dragon knows dragon
yeah my family of 3 lives on less than half that.and i don't consider my self poor. broke as hell yes, but not poor.
Jessica
Life in the hood is all good for nobody.... Tupac A. Shakur
Jessica
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind~~Dr.Seuss
yes, i am often broke as hell, but having been poor, i know for certain that neither i nor anyone making $60K a year is poor.
"if i pass for other than what i am/do you feel safer?" ~lani ka'ahumanu
www.walkingthewalls.blogspot.com
"dragon knows dragon
Sounds to me that what she is poor in is basic human kindness, poor in spirit, poor in compassion. Maybe in the next life she'll be the child of a young mother who works at wal-mart. because she can't find a better job.
I could not have put it better.
she is just wrong, sheesh. But she is probably living beyond her means and has a lot of credit card debt. so her paychecks are gone just trying to keep up.
it amuses me sometimes to hear who thinks they're poor. and i'm sure that to some me calling myself that is kind of insulting. "poor" really is a strong word.
but i relate to the issue of not having a lot of money to buy gifts for people for christmas. in addition to the indignity of feeling like i have to submit a detailed spreadsheet to prove i really am strapped, i also don't really value christmas. so while i say that i "can't" spend $20 on christmas, when i can spend it on say... a basketball clinic for my kid... i know that i "could" if i tried very hard and tightened up my budget enough starting as far back in the year as necessary, free up like $5 per kid in teh family. but, it's not that important to me. in my mind i can't do this. but to the parents of the kids who value christmas more than i do, i made a choice. i know my sister stockpiles all year so that she doesn't leave anyone without a gift. because it would really bother her if that happened. you know?
i don't know what 60k is like in cleveland, here it's nothing. well, almost nothing. half of a two income household, maybe.
i live in one of the highest cost of living areas in the country, make way the hell less than $60K per annum, have a partner who makes way the hell less than me, and we have a good standard of living. where is $60K a year nothing? or only half of something?
as to the christmas gifting pressures, i get being resentful and/or dismissive of that, but as i read the original post, this woman was talking about not giving to charity instead of about not buying her kids a nintendo.
edited to add: and yes, we even manage to give to charity and give loved ones gifts, though, with the exception of dd, the winter gifting is generally done post income tax return - all on what is possibly substantially less than nothing.
"if i pass for other than what i am/do you feel safer?" ~lani ka'ahumanu
www.walkingthewalls.blogspot.com
"dragon knows dragon
60k a year is a lot of money anywhere...
When the cheapest rent around is between $1500 and $2000 for a one bedroom apartment, and commuting into the city by train costs hundreds of dollars a month, and a subway pass is almost $100 a month, not to mention daycare...
$60K, though far from being nothing, doesn't go far. BD makes $50K/year, and we've been living rent-free in a family apartment for 4 years. NYC is super-expensive, and, even though I live outside of the city, gentrification of areas like mine (which is the only place non-rich people can live in the county, and is surrounded by some of the wealthiest towns in the whole country) makes it really hard to afford anything.
The world is the size of our passion for changing it.- Subcomandante Insurgente Marcos
The world is the size of our passion for changing it.- Subcomandante Insurgente Marcos
I can see how it would be hard to live in NY on 60k a month especially if you couldn't get decent affordable childcare, but it still seems like a lot of money to me, I don't know.
Let's say I make 60k, right, and get 10% taken out for tax. That'll leave me 54k, right. Let's take off another 4k for taxes just be sure. That leaves 50k. I'm paying 24k a year for rent, leaves me 26k. I spend about 2k a year on groceries in Cleveland to feed a family of 5, so say in NY I spend 5k because everything is more expensive there. That leaves 21k. All my utilities, gas, water, electric, phone would be...say 9k a year. That leaves 12k. I get a relative or some other free or low-cost childcare (which is what I did when my kids were preschool), say I only pay 5k a year for childcare. That leaves 7k. I buy most of the family clothes second-hand, only buying new undies and shoes and the occasional coat so I only spend 1000 a year on clothing, that leaves 6k. Subway passes for me, husband, and teen would be 3600 a year, let's include the occassional cab or other transpo and round it up to 4k, that leaves $2,000.
So I have taken care of all the family basics in NY for 60k: housing, food, clothing, utilities, transportation, childcare, and have money left over to spend more if need be on any neccessities (like childcare) or even entertainment. Why are people struggling in NY on 60k a year? Is it a lot of debt? Am I underestimating how much food, thrift store clothes, and utilities are? Is my math wrong?
(not arguing with you Katja, just curious)
I realized I forgot any kind of celebrations like birthday parties or holiday presents, not to mention health insurance and co-pays or emergencies (there are always emergencies) or school supplies and school field trips and stuff. these things would put you into the hole at 60k in NY using my estimates, and I bet there is other stuff I am not remembering to include as well. So you are right, I can see how/why 60k would be a tight squeeze in NY even if you had not debt.
This makes me remember whena friend of mine who used to live in NY came to visit us in '00 at our old house, we were paying just $490 a month for a 3 bedroom duplex with a basement and attic and pantry and den as well as the standard living room, dining room, kitchen and bath. She flat-out refused to believe that's all we were paying, it was too funny.
my books & stuff
Yeah, I have little sympathy for that, unless they are really ignorant. I am not planning on living in S Florida the rest of my life. It is NOT worth the extra cost of living. I had a nice 2 bedroom apartment in Tallahassee for $275 a month before I moved back here. I am sure the prices have gone up a wee bit, and my standard of living has gone up a wee bit, but I don't want to pay the "location location location" tax my whole life.
We saved a good $60,000 on the price of our house by moving 30 minutes west of Ft. Lauderdale instead of living in the city or living in Miami Dade County. (I don't have to communte to work, but DH does. Still worth it.) Most people understand, but I still get a lot of "How can you live that far out?" comments.
Sunflower the unflower
Sunflower the unflower
but i expect to pay the location location location tax at least until my dd goes to college, if not my whole life. i moved to the bay area for a queer context, and in oakland, i found a non-white and mixed blood context. i'm not willing to give either of those up for cheaper rent. for both my sanity and my kid's healthy identity development, i think it'd be better to live in a studio in oakland than a three story house in the central valley or back in missouri. so, of course, i felt compelled to point out that folks often have reasons other than a fetish for a trendy address {which i don't actually have in a local context anyway} for struggling to remain in prohibitively expensive areas.
"if i pass for other than what i am/do you feel safer?" ~lani ka'ahumanu
www.walkingthewalls.blogspot.com
"dragon knows dragon
even though apartments are far far cheaper here in dallas than they would be in the portland area, where we plan on moving in a few months, it is worth it to us because of the different cultural contexts that would be available for us and our daughter. It doesn't have anything to do with trendiness...there is much more to our estimation of 'standard of living' besides square footage and purchasing power; I have lived in Texas all my life and find it culturally stifiling and not a place I want my daughter to grow up in.
the amount of rent SO and i pay would get us a house three times this size if we moved to a suburb city. living in a tiny historical house right off the main drag of downtown is worth it to us, for the quality of life and a little more cultural diversity.(which isn't much in phoenix.....reminds me of a joke: whats the difference between yogurt and phoenix? yogurt has culture. HAHA!)
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." - Nietzsche
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." - Nietzsche
Hopefully I can find a community that has the diversity and culture, but no location location location.
Maybe we'll have to build our own.
BTW, my house in the way out west has a gay couple on the corner and liberals next door. And, we are very outnumbered as English as a first languages whitey whitersons. The city here isn't necessarily more diverse, we were happy to find.
Sunflower the unflower
not that i don't understand what you're saying. i am just completely certain that there are any number of families living in nyc on way the hell less than $60K a year, so clearly, even in that context, it's a lot. and if it's a lot in the bay area or nyc {the two highest cost of living places in the u.s., i think}, then it's a lot anywhere in america, and if it's a lot anywhere in america, then it's a helluva lot anywhere else in the world. kwim?
"if i pass for other than what i am/do you feel safer?" ~lani ka'ahumanu
www.walkingthewalls.blogspot.com
"dragon knows dragon
The only way that poor folk have survived in NYC this long is by living in subsidized or rent-controlled housing, getting assistance for child care and food, and not having insurance. I wonder, all the time, how they can afford to live in the city, and, gradually, they're being completely edged out, as NYC becomes a place where only the truly rich can live.
The world is the size of our passion for changing it.- Subcomandante Insurgente Marcos
I totally agree on everything else, btw. Folk don't know how to live within thier means or how to get by on less. I just wanted to point out that there are some parts of the country where it's way way waaaaaaaayyyy more expensive to live than others.
The world is the size of our passion for changing it.- Subcomandante Insurgente Marcos
Right, but you're not taking into account that to live in New York City you don't have to live in Manhattan (or Brooklyn, which is getting expensive). When I lived in New York I lived in the Bronx- our 3 bedroom apartment was $1100- so only about $366 each. You could get everything up there for like a third of the price you'd pay in Manhattan. There's also Queen's and Staten Island, and let's not forget parts of New Jersey like Hoboken. Living in Manhattan is a luxury if you can afford it.
And I live in what's essentially the North Bronx. So yeah, the poor folk live in the Bronx. Brooklyn's become cool and super-expensive if you're not in the projects. Queens is getting up there. You can still find good places in Staten Island, but then, well... You're in Staten Island. Manahattan's insane: I don't even look at apartments there anymore. But the other boroughs (with the exception of the Bronx) are catching up pretty fast.
it's not nothing, but it is not a lot of money. it's... well, when my dh was making 60k and i was working, we weren't paying our bills.
i didn't pick up on the charity portion of the post. so this woman still can see her way clear to get consumer goods for her own kids. yeah, that's pretty typical, sadly. i always give to charity, no matter how poor i am. the amount goes down when i don't have a lot. like this year all we could afford to do was adopt a child at the library. you know, you pick a kid and they tell you age and gender and you get a gift. and i do that mainly for dd. so that every year she gives to people she doesn't know and internalizes that there are kids out there who need. some years we participate in more. and, we always give to the foodbank. but that's a common complaint, there are a lot of charities out there asking for money and i think these people feel a little guilty that they don't contribute more and expressing it as resentment that they're being asked.
Not that I'm defending her, but she is very likely so in-debt that she IS one paycheck away from being homeless. A lot of people live beyond their means no matter HOW much they make. Sick but true. How stressful that would be!!
I have noticed a lot of people I've met in the Cleveland area think that luxuries are neccessities, and if they don't provide them for their family then they are depriving them of something. like cable TV, people think they have to have cable! even though it's around $600 a year. That's just a little less than what we spend on food in a year. Or eating out for lunch at work, some people think that's a neccessity and don't even think to pack a lunch. Or clothing, that's a big deal in Cleveland...folks feel like they are poor if they can't drop $100 on their kid's shoes or buy brand new brand name clothing. if you suggest to them to buy a less expensive brand or whatever they get very offended. It's all a matter of values, and this woman does not value giving to charity, not even $5, not even $1. but I bet she values a lot of luxuries and believes they are neccessities.
I have heard people who make upwards of $100k complain about not being able to afford things. They don't call themselves poor, but they definitely complain about money while I sit there thinking that they are nuts.
Though I have to admit, right now I make almost twice what I made just 4 years ago, and I still barely make ends meet. Part of it is because I'm still paying off credit cards I ran up when I made a lot less, but part of it is because I don't know how to save money. I often think that if I could live on what I used to make then I should have more than enough now, but that's not the case. Since I make more money I got my own apartment, at more than twice the rent I used to pay. I have a car, which I never could've afforded before. It's possible for me to live without these things, but they make my life a lot easier. So I still live paycheck to paycheck and I can't say the same wouldn't happen if I made $60k a year.
But I also wouldn't dare call myself poor or complain about noot making enough because even though I work hard I know that really I'm just lucky to make what I make.
i support me and my two kids on 20k a year. BUT- i don't have credit cards, my car is paid off, and i know how to live within my means. like some mamas said below, a lot of people live beyond their means, buy tons of crap on credit cards instead of paying cash, and often end up paying twice the cost of something because of their interest rates.
poor is a strong word, and very subjective. maybe she considers herself poor compared to the people she surrounds herself with. to me, she sounds loaded. maybe i should tell her about my NPO, the "feed the twins fund". hardy har har.
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." - Nietzsche
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not kidding. come here. we have all of that. oh and shitty shitty weather. but it is the "berkley of the midwest"