Smoking bans: What do you think?
I'm curious what people think about smoking bans. My state has included on the ballot for next week's election a constitutional amendment that would ban smoking in all public places. They've also included a separate issue, not a constitutional amendment, that would give businesses the choice as to whether or not to allow smoking in certain areas. I've been emailing with some friends and family who are considering how to vote on those issues, and my sister had something interesting to say:
"I would prefer to have smoke free restaurants and bars; however, I see this as a government control issue. If they control this, what else will they try to control? I am in favor
of as little government interference and control as possible--on everything from birth control to seat belts to smoking to drinking. So I am conflicted about this vote because I'd prefer smoke free everything, but I would prefer that be voluntary and not government-controlled. I would prefer that the government's laws be off my body. Period. And since we are in such a stage of tight government control and crackdown on everything from privacy to birth control to forcible domination of all oil-rich countries, I am concerned that smoking restrictions are test cases to see how many other government restrictions and interferences the populace will support."
What do you think about that?
Our state recently passed a no smoking within 25 ft of anything law, and it sucks. Several businesses are having a really hard time, like the historic restaurant/bar/cigar shop that was just sold, and local bars. If we go out to breakfast in the morning the streets and sidewalks are PILED with cigarette butts because everyone has to go outside. it's gross. It's another instance of criminalizing the poor, imo. f-off, big broth.
I agree with your sister, too.
My town has passed the no smoking in public places ban, and it has now started some non-smoking neighborhoods (blocks that are owned by a hospital). On one hand I see the merit to as much clean air as possible, but I think it actually encourages REALLY bad practices - like smoking in cars and houses with kids there, etc. In one particular neighborhood you can get fined for smoking in your vehicle with the window open, and I have actually seen people roll up their windows, with children in the car. Stupid of them, and yes, I know the answer is to quit, but I just don't agree with local bans on this kind of thing. It smacks of prohibition to me.
"Step off my big ass."
- Anthromom
there's just something wrong to me about a bar without smoking.
yeah...here in denton you can pretty much smoke in most restaurants and ALL bars...i can't really have a drink without at least one cigarette, and it is difficult for me to be in a bar without smoking...it's more than just the nicotine, it is the social ritual, the way it fills gaps...can you tell i'm missing my cigarettes this late in pregnancy? I plan to try to not smoke after I give birth...but smokers and non smokers have rights and I feel like there are plenty of places for people who don't smoke to go and there should be plenty of places for people who do smoke to go..the government should stay out of it. If they are interested in 'people's health' why not ban fast food? obesity and heart disesase kill nearly as many people. Why not band cheap snack foods in grocery stores? cheap food products in general with low health benefits? I feel like the focus on smoking in public as the Great Social Health Issue distracts from other things that are just as bad but harder to 'control'.
I don't get exposed to known toxins if I am sitting next to you eating my McSalad. Secondhand smoke affects people other than the smoker; fast food doesn't.
there are so many other sources of serious toxins in our general environment that just don't get the public flogging that smokers and smoking do...(other people higher up on the thread made a lot of points I had in my head already); also I didn't say that people who smoke should be able to smoke anywhere; there should be space for smokers and non smokers. I just don't think a complete ban is the way to go.
you'd be surprised at how quickly your mindset can change if the ban occurs where you live. i swear i said many of the things you're saying here, over and over, because i've lived through the ban being imposed in 3 different cities where i've lived (LA, NYC, & Minneapolis). and now, honesty, i am stunned when i travel to a place where you still can smoke. it just looks so...so... i dunno, backasswards now?
....i've never thought of smoking as "backward"; but I do think that it is rather judgemental to see places where smoking is allowed as..backward. also Dallas has a public smoking ban, and so does the suburb I grew up in, in fact it had an alcohol AND smoking ban. I don't think those places were any more "sophisticated" because of their regulations on people's behavior.
Smoking is probably more hip than ever. I can't figure out that one? I'm an X smoker and it's the worst becuase I forget how much I loved it and needed it. Now I hate it.
Still with second hand smoke.....it's a tough one. They've banned smoking on our public beaches more for the reason of people putting their cigs out in the sand?
.
i'm not saying i think smoking is backward, nor do i think non-smoking is more "sophisticated." i meant that the perception of what is "normal" changes whenever what you're used to seeing changes and you've lived with that change long enough.
OK, as a person who has NEVER picked up a nasty cigarette, I love the fact I can go somewhere and not get second hand smoke. It's nasty to eat next to someone smoking or to breathe the nasty air someone is polluting with their cancer sticks. I choose not to smoke because I don't want to die of lung cancer, so it defeats the purpose when I have to be stuck in a room with others that don't care about dieing of cancer, KWIM?
As far as the businesses go, well I feel bad for them losing business. But really? Them losing business or me getting cancer from second hand smoke? Do I have to choose?
not for us anymore, but in theory...you can choose to go to a NON-smoking restaurant. A smoker can CHOOSE to go to a smoking permitted establishment. Smoking is not (technically) illegal, so to say 'you can't do this or allow customers to do this legal activity in your business' is just over-reaching governmental control. I understand the second-hand smoke, concern for employees, etc., but until we get rid of the combustion-based car engine--HAHAHAHA!!!...if you kwim.
so this is a question on my mind too. i am an ex-smoker and so is dh. we met at a grungy coffeehouse where we were both regulars. one of the biggest reasons i sought out a place like that to hang out is because i could smoke there. i went there to smoke because i couldn't do it where i was living. same with dh. now, as non-smokers, we do not like to be in a place that is completely smoke-filled, so we just don't go to those places. but having been on the other side, i think it is extremely unfair to take that away from smokers. it should be up to the business itself, not the government. it would be very sad if "our" little coffeehouse had to close after however many years because of this ban. there are plenty of smoke-free coffeehouses for us non-smokers to go to. i agree with your sister about the government trying to control another aspect of our lives. it won't stop people from smoking. they'll take their butts (literally) to the streets.
That law is already in effect here. No smoking in restaurants, businesses, bars,etc. As a non-smoker whose family has a history of respiratory problems and cancer I can't say I'm too sad about bars being smoke free. It's quite nice actually to be able to go to a bar or restaurant and not have to choke on fumes.
I'm not really sure about the big brother aspect...I'm in Ontario and they are "selling it" as health protection here. Of course if Canada was really interested in "health protection" they'd rethink the Kyoto Accord but that's a whole other issue...
"I just bribed my 6 year old with 75 cents to have a tea party with his brother and sister."
i pretty much agree with your sister. i am a non-smoker who grew up in an entire family of smokers diseases included(my grandfather died of emphysema and my grandma has only a partial lung left due to cancer) BUT I think it is a violation of the smokers rights to make it illegal. I think a place of business has every right to have their establishment be non-smoking because you can choose where you go to spend your money but to make it illegal is BS.
Jessica
Thinking must be strenuous work. If it weren't more people would take it up....~unknown~seen outside my children's library
Jessica
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind~~Dr.Seuss
I am totally for a smoking ban.
Not so much because I don't dig secondhand smoke (I am an ex smoker who has one every once in awhile), but because of bartenders and waitresses who are forced to inhale this shit 40+ hours a week for minimum wage. Secondhand smoke does cause cancer. period. Would you want your child to go to daycare where all the adults light up every 20 minutes?
Yeah it sucks for bar crawling, but I think that is a very limited view of its impact. And I don't think that this can be a choice a company makes. It has to be government, otherwise it won't get done.
I am not anti-smoker. In fact, I miss smoking something fierce. I often relish the smell of a freshly lit cigarette for the vicarious thrill. I had a cigar at my uncle's funeral 4 years ago and I can still taste it it was so good. I have been quit over 10 years and I still long for a cigarette--which says something about the addictive power of tobacco.
All of that said, I am glad I quit and I believe that tobacco kills. The studies show that smoking restrictions help people quit--quit rates increase whenever a ban is put in place-- and business in the long run does better, especially with statewide bans. Look at California and New York.
Also, if anybody wants an example of "the Man" to stick it to, how about the tobacco industry? Those fuckers systematically and intentionally target specific populations with their advertising, like, youth, communities of color, working class and low income communities. I get what Mmemosyne is saying regarding criminalizing poverty, and part of me agrees, but I also think the tobacco industry ought to get nailed for being eager to poison the poor--and anyone else they can get their hands on.
These people spend millions of dollars to make sure we can all continue to choose to buy and inhale their product with is a known cancer causing toxin. Myself included. I do have the right to make that choice, but I don't have the right to force a bartender to live (or die) with my choice.
did you see 'Thank You for Smoking'? A sort-of-satire on a lobbyist for big tobacco--sorry for the hijack, but it's a relevent movie...
and thought it was hilarious. though chilling. My favorite scene was Rob Lowe in a kimono. LOL!
The only thing with smoking is that it creates second-hand smoke which does damage other people. BD used to work at a nightclub (still does, but a different one)- he'd always reek of cigarette smoke and his eyes would sting- it was aweful. I have a friend who used to never be able to come out to bars with us because she's severely athsmatic (sp?)and allergic to cigarette smoke. These are the people who smoking bans protect. There is a statewide smoking ban in MA and all that means is that the smokers need to light-up outside- sure it's a bitch if you smoke, especially in cold weather but oh well- don't smoke then (and I'm a former smoker).
I am against seatbelt laws (for adults) and such because I think if you want to risk your own health or safety that's your decision to make- not the governments. Heck- I even believe that most drugs should be made legal as well as prostitution. But cigarrette smoking inside a bar/restaurant/etc. does affect the health and wellbeing of others in a big way- that's where I draw the line.
is that, if an adult in the back seat isn't belted in, and you get into an accident, the mortality rate of the other people in the car goes up by like 800% because their body becomes a projectile.
imho, if you're not smart enough to buckle up to protect your car-mates, you can take the bus.
The world is the size of our passion for changing it.- Subcomandante Insurgente Marcos
The world is the size of our passion for changing it.- Subcomandante Insurgente Marcos
As a former smoker (12 years- now 4 years quit), I have to say that I'm for the ban. Secondhand smoke kills non-smokers. Yes, bartenders and waitresses have a choice in their professions, but being a waitress at a bar often means good money, money that can't really be turned down in favour of minimum wage at a bookstore, for instance.
Cigarettes are not a benign lifestyle choice, regardless of what teenagers and hipsters everywhere seem to think: They're addictive, and lethal, and you never smoke alone. Smokers are addicts (as ably demonstrated by the mamas posting about people lighting up in child-filled cars with closed windows), and they think like addicts. I spent years rationalizing smoking (even while I was pregnant the first time!) when there's not really a defense for it.
imho, just because smoking is an affliction of the poor, doesn't make banning smoking an anti-poor act. I'd be happier about it if governments did more to help people quit (FYI, OHIP covers hypnotherapy to quit smoking).
If you want to smoke, be my guest: It's your funeral. But I don't see anything wrong with telling you that you need to smoke outside and away from other people. Hell, even smoking in the privacy of your own home can be problematic: I used to live above some smokers, and whenever they were home my non-smoking apartment would reek of smoke.
I also agree that, were governments really worried about it, they'd stop profiting from cigarette taxes and just make them cripplingly expensive.
FWIW, the smoking ban came into effect in Toronto and in NYC when I still smoked, and it made everything much more pleasant for everyone. I didn't mind going outside, and, at the end of the night, my clothes weren't reeking and my eyes weren't all bloodshot from the smoke.
The world is the size of our passion for changing it.- Subcomandante Insurgente Marcos
it's so strange to me to see/smell smoking in a restaraunt that i feel like the tobacco lobby has dished out some deep bucks to maintain the pulbic smokabiity in those places that still have it!
anyone remember when they started to ban smoking on flights? first it was all domestic flights under 2 hours. people flipped out. but they adjusted. then it was all domestic flights period. people flipped out. but they adjusted. now it is all flights period. and you know what? people prefer it. people love it. most people can't even remember when you could smoke on flights, it just seems so stupid now.
i've lived in three cities when such bans have gone into effect - los angeles, new york city, and minneapolis. i was a heavy smoker at the time when each of these occurred and i pissed and moaned about all of them, esp when it happened in minneapolis becuase "it's too effen cold to smoke outside." and you know what? it's not. bars and restaraunts in all three cities have managed to create outside smoking areas, and in many cases installed outdoor heaters so the smokers don't freeze while they're doing it. bar owners in all of those cities pissed and moaned that they'd loose business because of the bans. but they haven't. many of their businesses have thrived because the non-smokers are coming out in droves.
mainly i am for it because we all know that 2nd hand smoke is toxic, like really really really toxic, and this kind of ban ensures a safer work environment for the people who work in those establishments. my pregnant sister who is a waitress for one. and my BD for two. he's a musician with severe asthma. all the smoke he's taken in over the 20 years he's been playing is really scary. its a huge releif for him when he plays in cities that have the ban.
hadn't been remodeled in many decades and you could see the tar on the ceiling tiles. Some of the women who had worked there forever remembered it when people would just light up at their desks. Now it seems so alien!
And I'm sketchy on people who are down on smokers. Glass houses and all that. If I meet someone, who lives in a shack made out of completely non-harmful substances, drives no car, uses no chemicals, etc, that person can talk about smokers polluting the world. Everyone else is something of a hypocrite.
I'm not really rational about this, because people used to walk straight up to my mom and say how ugly she was because she smoked. It was impossibly rude!
***the United States is one of only four out of 168 countries studied to not have some form of paid family leave for new moms. We join Swaziland, Papua New Guinea, and Lesotho in not having that policy in place. ***
i don't think it makes a person ugly, nor do I think smokers are polluting the world. I get really turned off by people who take a self-righteous stance with smokers. My issue is with the tobacco industry and the way they have hooked people and lied and misled and killed people for profit.
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I just watched that last week, actually! Really interesting!