God
I have a very hard time believing there is a god. To me, there is no evidence of his/her existence.
People are so quick to thank god when anything good comes their way, and to praise god when something someone is healed. Many people are quick give god the credit when prayers are answered.
But when something bad happens, many people say "God has a plan." Sometimes people get angry at God for letting things happen, but more often, I hear "Everything happens for a reason."
Rarely does God get the blame, but often gets the credit.
I see no evidence of a higher power. If there was a God who could mediate good on earth, George Bush would not be able to slaughter thousands of innocent people, children in Africa would not be starving and babies would not have cancer. These things (among all the other horrors that occur daily) are my evidence that there is not a higher power. Or at least a good one.
I would like to know why you believe in God if you do. What evidence is there?
Boomer is so 2005.
Presence of suffering on the earth doesn't mean there isn't a higher power. As humans we seem to always hope that the higher power is like a "father" or "mother", maybe it is more like an "observer"...
Older religions plead to the gods and godesses for intervention in all their mighty power, but don't get all worked up an confused when god didn't answer. They usually blamed themselves for not sacrificing enough, not being good enough. Some religions believed in gods and goddesses that were much more like humans, with all their imperfections and drama.
Why does a higher power have to be good or evil? Nature is neither. The universe is neither. I have an easier time believing in an impartial god then a loving one for the same reasons you stated above. Maybe it just wants us to work out life for ourselves without it having to hold our hands all the time.
Just a thought.
I realizd I was agreeing with you in a way. I don't think god exists how we are taught. Sometimes I think god and all of its miracles maybe was just alien events of some sort. Maybe those aliens have a hands off policy but every once in awhile someone falls asleep at the wheel and there is a "sighting" or a miracle happens.
Maybe they even genetically created us (for livestock or entertainment) and just haven't come back to round us up yet...
Okay I read too much sci fi.
When I told my Grandmother and Aunt that my partner and I were having a child, I deffinetly heard plenty of You need to get married "god has a plan". It's a load of crap as far as I'm concerned.
I am not religious by any means but a character flaw prevents me from closing my head to spirituality. Not evidence though, just the wondering why everything is and why we think things are beautiful and ugly and such.
Why does this child, whom I understand every aspect of it's biological growth inside of me, come out with a personality and certain basic understanding of things.
"Religion is for people who are afraid of hell. Spirituality is for
people who've been to
hell."--quoted by Ken Bruen (Irish crime novelist)
"Religion is for people who are afraid of hell. Spirituality is for
people who've been to
hell."--quoted by Ken Bruen (Irish crime novelist)
I worked last night so I am tired, so may come back to this when I'm feeling more intelligent. But my quick thoughts on it:
God as I see him/her isn't around to say yes to us. Nor is he/she reveling in the suffering of the world. I believe we all have free will and that none of us are exempt from suffering. I was actually ranting to my pastor once about some things that have been hard in my own life, and prayers that I thought should be answered. For me. And he said, "You know, Susie, sometimes God just says "no."" I had never thought of it that way before - at least in my own little world.
It is horrible that children are starving, getting cancer, and people in this country are electing assholes like George Bush. I just have a hard time believing that God is up there orchestrating suffering. I look at it more like, there is suffering, and God never said he would stop it. My beliefs just tell me that I won't be suffering alone.
So far as proof goes - can't help you there. That's where faith comes in.
One of these days I am going to just bite the bullet and write out my own experience with this, so that it makes more sense. Sometimes I feel like simply by saying that I am a Christian and DO believe in God is seen by many as the equivalent of saying I am waiting for the Easter Bunny to appear on my doorstep with Santa Claus and hand me a winning lottery ticket. My beliefs have been really hard to come by, and sometime I might be able to explain them a little more fully.
But right now, I need a nap.
"Step off my big ass."
- Anthromom
You might want to read the comments here:
http://www.hipmama.com/node/17061
People left some well thought out comments on this same topic.
I grew up in a very conservative Christian family and part of the country. For a while I bought into that. As I got older and started to question the reality of life, my beliefs changed. Now I'm agnostic. I don't think we can ever know. But I suppose I'm rather an optimistic agnostic, if there is such a thing. I guess my beliefs align more with some of the eastern religions. I think if there is such a thing as "god," which I would describe as a higher form of consciousness or spirituality, I think that "god" resides in each of us, *is* that sort of universal human consciousness that makes us question what is good and what wrong, that allows us to do very good and loving things in the midst of also being flawed and inherently self-serving. I don't think it's a separate guy in the sky with a booming voice and a white beard. I don't believe in some ultimate being who can intervene in the world, who can bless us or curse us as he or she might choose. I think it's a more tangible thing. But I guess my feeling on it is that it's only a piece of life. We have and make choices. There is good but there is also pain. We can learn from all of it--the good and the painful--if we choose to, and I guess I feel like it's that higher part of us that can allow us to learn from things.
It's the good that I see in people that makes me think there is something higher. It's also our human ability to make it through extremely difficult and painful circumstances, things that seem like they should break our spirits.
There's a lot to this thing, I guess, and I'm sure there are as many answers as there are people.
I agree with your take on it. I also don't necessarily see it as evidence of "god" if by "god" people mean a separate being who has a "plan" and who we should pray to. I see it as evidence of what you say, united force of good, as well as just a universal spiritual consciousness, if that makes sense. If people want to call that "god," they can. I guess personally I don't think it matters what it's called. Sometimes, though, it's easier to equate it with a sort of understanding of "god" than to try to use a phrase like "universal human consciousness" or "universal conscience" because those things can get rather tedious to say! And, I suppose, there is debate about whether there can be or is such a universal thing...just as there is debate about god...but personally I see more evidence for some sort of universal thing that is *in us* than for something that is outside of us...
Anyway, it's all kind of fun to talk and think about, at least!
I don't know that I pray--brings up too much weirdness for me because of my younger days and its connection with Christianity (and, as you've said here, in other comments, I also have a problem with the whole attribution to god for anything and everything--that everything good happens when people pray enough, and when they don't pray enough bad things happen--or, worse, god has just decided for whatever reason in his "plan" that they don't need that good thing right now...and I don't buy that)--but I suppose I do think there is merit in the whole idea of prayer as being a meditation of sorts, of focusing our energy on something, seeking personal change, maybe enlightenment of some sort, maybe meditating on something for another person, sending "good vibes" into the universe, as we so often say here... As far as it relates to things going on within us personally, I think meditating/praying/centering ourselves/whatever you want to call it can help us to perhaps figure things out, come to new realizations, etc.etc.etc. And as for things outside ourselves, I suppose my thought on it is that it can't do any harm, can it? And if there is, in fact, some sort of universal consciousness, maybe there is some sort of metaphysical kind of way to connect to it...who knows...mystics have said we can...
For me I believe in God. I find it extremely hard to believe that everything happened from a "big bang" i feel all life forms and everything are just way to complex to have just "happened". just the reproductive process is to invloved just to have happened magically one day.i do however not believe everything in the bible word for word so to speak. i think God used evolution to some degree i mean we are obviously very closely related to apes.i think the general feeling of the sayings you mentioned is because that's what people need to feel/say to themselves to get through hard times.nobody likes to feel that anyone is against them especially God.as far as evidence it depends where and how you look I guess but that's where faith comes in. i mean suffering is shitty but with out it we wouldn't know what is good ya know?And i was not brought up to believe in any God i choose to believe this through my own eduaction and growth.but people do blame God they just don't voice it as loudly.I have done this myself and i think a lot of people actually do.i've lost ( and i really hate this phrase but for lack of a better one)4 babies and believe me i was angry with God plenty, but I ended up with a beautiful healthy baby girl that in some way made it all worth it and you can believe I thanked and do still every day thank God for my girl cuz i don't think she'd have gotten here otherwise.but to me there has to be a God. and if not there was no harm in me believing anyway.
Jessica
I'm strong, I'm tough, I still wear my eyeliner...Lisa Leslie
Jessica
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind~~Dr.Seuss
thank you.i try to remember that when she is terrorizing me. Ha Ha
Jessica
I'm strong, I'm tough, I still wear my eyeliner...Lisa Leslie
My general feeling about the question: if there's a God, why does s/he allow suffering? is that faith needs to be tested in order for it to be real. If there was a higher power that intervened all the time, what motivation would there be for individuals to do the right things, to take care of one another, etc.? (Not that this happens all the time now) Still, I believe that "God" resides in every person, to a certain extent. Every time a person chooses to help someone, to love someone, to care for and about someone else, that's God. Every time a prayer or request for help is answered by a person who just wants to help, that's God. I believe there's a higher power, something we can't comprehend, but on Earth the most real manifestation of God that I see and believe in comes from the goodness I observe in others. I guess you could also say that when someone does something horrible to someone else, or when a request for help is denied, that's the absence of God, the defeat of the divine aspects of our natures by the baser aspects.
"There ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." - Tom Waits
I agree you put that very well.
Jessica
I'm strong, I'm tough, I still wear my eyeliner...Lisa Leslie
"There ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." - Tom Waits
I believe in God because I really, really want to. Just made that old leap of faith. Gave up trying to reconcile it with my intellect. Works for me.
Also, I don't spend a lot of time dwelling on the God that mucks around too much in day-to-day affairs (that's what freewill is all about, ya know?). Instead, God is just...um...present.
It makes me crazy when people attribute success or affluence to God. We have friends who live in a beautiful house and make lots of money, who are always saying, "It wasn't us, it was God who gave us this." WTF? This implication seems to me to be that if you're poor, God must hate you. In general, I think a lot of obnoxious claims and horrible, manipulative behavior is justified by being "true to God" or "a manifestation of our Christian faith", and it really pisses me off.
"There ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." - Tom Waits
If there is a God, I think s/he has better things to do than give out cars, houses, etc. To me, it's a self-righteous thing someone says when they're trying to appear humble, but are really showing off.
"There ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." - Tom Waits
I guess for me it depends how they say it. i mean in a christmas card that's just weird to me but if it said something like"thank you jesus for all of my blessing this year especially be being able to afford a new car" would be o.k. but to say "hey jesus sent me a car this year" is just goofy. So i guees it depends on the context, where you were and exactly what was said.to me it's more like "thanks Jesus for giving me the ability to go to work everyday and make enough money to buy a much needed car"see what i mean?
Jessica
I'm strong, I'm tough, I still wear my eyeliner...Lisa Leslie
I'm with ya. ya got me on that one but i do have this quote i found.
"Some people don't seem to realize that doing what's right is no guarantee against misfortune' Now there is no religous connotation here but kind of goes with what we're saying.i guess even these people have probably had some blessings in life. faith is suppose to be tested so i guess maybe it's along those lines.where's reverend when we need her?
Jessica
I'm strong, I'm tough, I still wear my eyeliner...Lisa Leslie
To me, practicing gratitude is a wonderful thing, and it can really change the way we percieve life. When I do a gratitude list...granted, I'm not really "thanking Jesus" or anything....but I am displaying some gratitude to forces that are not entirely under my control. For me, the focus is on feeling the gratitude.
It never has any relation to anyone else who has less. At all. It's only about me. Sometimes all I can think of is stuff like "I am grateful I can walk". If I lost my legs...I'd like to think I could still say "I am grateful I can use my arms" or see...or whatever. And I wouldn't percieve it as God loving me any less, or that I was now somehow less deserving or worthy...I would just be on a new part of my learning journey...set up for a new set of lessons or experiences.
That's it... god is Oprah.
----When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a meteorite hurtling to the Earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much hosed no matter what you wish for. Unless it's death by meteor.----
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"Presence of suffering on the earth doesn't mean there isn't a higher power" You are right - but to me, it must mean that there isn't the kind of all powerful who can heal and make rain. The kind of higher power you describe as an impartial observer is easier for me to comprehend.
Still, I'm not sure if there is one even in that mode. I appreciate your perspective.