...Rowdy Children in Coffee Shops
From the New York Times:
November 9, 2005
At Center of a Clash, Rowdy Children in Coffee Shops
By JODI WILGOREN
CHICAGO, Nov. 8 - Bridget Dehl shushed her 21-month-old son, Gavin, then clapped a hand over his mouth to squelch his tiny screams amid the Sunday brunch bustle. When Gavin kept yelping "yeah, yeah, yeah," Ms. Dehl whisked him from his highchair and out the door.
Right past the sign warning the cafe's customers that "children of all ages have to behave and use their indoor voices when coming to A Taste of Heaven," and right into a nasty spat roiling the stroller set in Chicago's changing Andersonville neighborhood.
The owner of A Taste of Heaven, Dan McCauley, said he posted the sign - at child level, with playful handprints - in the hope of quieting his tin-ceilinged cafe, where toddlers have been known to sprawl between tables and hurl themselves at display cases for sport.
But many neighborhood mothers took umbrage at the implied criticism of how they handle their children. Soon, whispers of a boycott passed among the playgroups in this North Side neighborhood, once an outpost of avant-garde artists and hip gay couples but now a hot real estate market for young professional families shunning the suburbs.
"I love people who don't have children who tell you how to parent," said Alison Miller, 35, a psychologist, corporate coach and mother of two. "I'd love for him to be responsible for three children for the next year and see if he can control the volume of their voices every minute of the day."
Mr. McCauley, 44, said the protesting parents were "former cheerleaders and beauty queens" who "have a very strong sense of entitlement." In an open letter he handed out at the bakery, he warned of an "epidemic" of antisocial behavior.
"Part of parenting skills is teaching kids they behave differently in a restaurant than they do on the playground," Mr. McCauley said in an interview. "If you send out positive energy, positive energy returns to you. If you send out energy that says I'm the only one that matters, it's going to be a pretty chaotic world."
And so simmers another skirmish between the childless and the child-centered, a culture clash increasingly common in restaurants and other public spaces as a new generation of busy, older, well-off parents ferry little ones with them.
An online petition urging child-free sections in North Carolina restaurants drew hundreds of signers, including Janelle Funk, who wrote, "Whenever a hostess asks me 'smoking or non-smoking?' I respond, 'No kids!' "
At Mendo Bistro in Fort Bragg, Calif., the owners declare "Well-behaved children and parents welcome" to try to stop unmonitored youngsters from tap-dancing on the 100-year-old wood floors.
Menus at Zumbro Cafe in Minneapolis say: "We love children, especially when they're tucked into chairs and behaving," which Barbara Daenzer said she read as an invitation to cease her weekly breakfast visits after her son was born.
Even at the Full Moon in Cambridge, Mass., a cafe created for families, with a train table, a dollhouse and a plastic kitchen in a carpeted play area, there are rules about inside voices and a "No lifeguard on duty" sign to remind parents to take responsibility.
"You run the risk when you start monitoring behavior," said the Full Moon's owner, Sarah Wheaton. "You can say no cellphones to people, but you can't say your father speaks too loudly, he has to keep his voice down. And you can't really say your toddler is too loud when she's eating."
Here in Chicago, parents have denounced Toast, a popular Lincoln Park breakfast spot, as unwelcoming since a note about using inside voices appeared on the menu six months ago. The owner of John's Place, which resembles a kindergarten class at recess in early evening, established a separate "family friendly" room a year ago, only to face parental threats of lawsuits.
Many of the Andersonville mothers who are boycotting Mr. McCauley's bakery also skip story time at Women and Children First, a feminist bookstore, because of the rules: children can be kicked out for standing, talking or sipping drinks. When a retail clerk at the bookstore asked a woman to stop breast-feeding last spring, "the neighborhood set him straight real fast," said Mary Ann Smith, the area's alderwoman.
After a dozen years at one site, Mr. McCauley moved A Taste of Heaven six blocks away in May 2004, to a busy corner on Clark Street. But there, he said, teachers and writers seeking afternoon refuge were drowned out not just by children running amok but also by oblivious cellphone chatterers.
Children were climbing the cafe's poles. A couple were blithely reading the newspaper while their daughter lay on the floor blocking the line for coffee. When the family whose children were running across the room to throw themselves against the display cases left after his admonishment, Mr. McCauley recalled, the restaurant erupted in applause.
So he put up the sign. Then things really got ugly.
"The looks I would get when I went in there made me so nervous that I would try to buy the food as fast as I could and get out," said Laura Brauer, 40, who has stopped visiting A Taste of Heaven with her two children. "I think that the mothers who allow their kids to run around and scream, that's wrong, but kids scream and there is nothing you can do about it. What are we supposed to do, not enjoy ourselves at a cafe?"
Ms. Miller said that one day when her son, then 4 months old, was fussing, a staff member rolled her eyes and announced for all to hear, "We've got a screamer!"
Kim Cavitt recalled having coffee and a cookie one afternoon with her boisterous 2-year-old when "someone came over and said you just need to keep her quiet or you need to leave."
"We left, and we haven't been back since," Ms. Cavitt said. "You go to a coffee shop or a bakery for a rest, to relax, and that you would have to worry the whole time about your child doing something that children do - really what they're saying is they don't welcome children, they want the child to behave like an adult."
Why suffer such scorn, the mothers said, when clerks at the Swedish Bakery, a neighborhood institution, offer children - calm or crying - free cookies? Why confront such criticism when the recently opened Sweet Occasions, a five-minute walk down Clark Street, designed the restroom aisle to accommodate double strollers and offers a child-size ice cream cone for $1.50? (At A Taste of Heaven, the smallest is $3.75.)
"It's his business; he has the right to put whatever sign he wants on the door," Ms. Miller said. "And people have the right to respond to that sign however they want."
Mr. McCauley said he had received kudos from several restaurant owners in the area, though none had followed his lead. He has certainly lost customers because of the sign, but some parents say the offense is outweighed by their addiction to the scones, and others embrace the effort at etiquette.
"The litmus test for me is if they have highchairs or not," said Ms. Dehl, the woman who scooped her screaming son from his seat during brunch, as she waited out his restlessness on a sidewalk bench. "The fact that they had one highchair, and the fact that he's the only child in the restaurant is an indication that it's an adult place, and if he's going to do his toddler thing, we should take him out and let him run around."
Mr. McCauley said he would rather go out of business than back down. He likens this one small step toward good manners to his personal effort to decrease pollution by hiring only people who live close enough to walk to work.
"I can't change the situation in Iraq, I can't change the situation in New Orleans," he said. "But I can change this little corner of the world."
huh. well i don't put up with crap in public, I believe the tail doesn't wag the dog and I am not going to ruin other people's lunch for my whirlwind of terror toddler- i hate when others do that but i can say that being called out or warned before hand would make me feel disrespected and feel like this guy or establishment was questioning my intergrity in addition to having a bad attitude concerning kids in general- I wouldn't step foot in his place after hearing this.
*A personal pet peeve of mine is when someone just leaves their baby in a poopy daiper and keeps doing what they are doing for the longest time not giving two fucks that someone like me is now drinking a coffee that tastes like poop. And I think other kids diapers are alot stinkier than our own kids diapers-gag.
"I can't change the situation in Iraq, I can't change the situation in New Orleans," he said. "But I can change this little corner of the world."
Um...yeah. I can't stop a senseless war or institutionalized racism, but damn it let's keep the child- f r ee yuppies happy. Save the Yuppies!
But seriously, obnoxious as it is, he has a right to do it. And I appreciate knowing where my toddler is welcome and where he's not. Makes it a little easier to avoid the insensitive assholes of the world.
That said, some parents can be assholes too. My sis used to be a barrista, and she had this lady yell at her once, all impassioned, self-righteous, because the cookies were too big. "This is a CHILD. I can't give a cookie that big to my CHILD. Don't you have anything smaller?" (O the humanity.)
_________
"It takes a village, people!"
- Carson Kressley
come to think of it, thats a really egotistical self important statement he made.
I think that there's a big, big difference between children just being children, and children being allowed to run amok. I am in wholehearted favour of the former, not so much of the latter. Too often, childless people mistake the two, and that's when I start to get angry.
In this case, not wanting children sprawling across the floor or hurling themselves into your display cases seems perfectly reasonable, and I totally agree that parents should hold their children to minimum behavioural standards when in public (and in this case, I define 'public' as somewhere where one goes voluntarily for purposes of leisure, to rule out those times when your toddler melts down during grocery shopping and you really don't have a choice about leaving). I think that sacrificing some of those totally undisturbed, newspaper-reading moments comes with the turf when you decide to be a parent.
I also totally sympathize with this man's dilemma: How do you ask people to use common sense and exercise a bit of common decency when neither of those things is actually commonplace? People tend to get really offended really quickly when their common sense or courtesy is under attack- especially when they're not using it. I, for one, am a passionate hater of cellphones. I don't have one, I don't plan to get one, and I really resent having to hear the minutiae of total strangers' personal lives while sitting on the subway. But, save from asking people to be considerate, what can you do? And, unfortunately, most of time when you ask without backing it up with consequences, no one listens. That's my experience with cellphones, anyway.
All that is beside the point, though, which is that there aren't really mother and family friendly spaces. I know, because I've been totally isolated since my daughter was born. I'm pretty painfully socially awkward and that coupled with my Canadianness makes me cringe every time dd raises her voice when we're eating out- never mind the fact that I truly believe that we have every right to be out with her, and that she, at one year, shouldn't have to control herself just yet.
I get really mad when people give us hostile glances, and I'm thinking of making shirts that say "I hope that when you were a baby no one looked at your mother the way you're looking at me". I also actively smile supportively at parents whose kids are freaking out to try to counter all the negativity.
So what to do? I tend to passive-aggressively indulge in fantasizing about the rude awakening all of these childless hipsters will have when they give birth and, just like that, become shunned by hip society. And I still go anywhere I want to with dd, just to show that places that aren't child-friendly should be. But I also try to be considerate, and I don't take her out late at night to fancy places, and I do take her outside if she's freaking out. And I think that there needs to be a balance.
The world is the size of our passion for changing it.- Subcomandante Insurgente Marcos
since my kid is finally asleep after being up most of the night and then getting up super-early and skipping her morning nap (I didn't know it was possible to be this tired), I am soooo sick of the media playing up this whole war between the child-ridden and childless.
In NYC, there's always bitching about big strollers. It's always in the Times, some yuppie is always getting mad about some other yuppie's Bugaboo Frog taking up the whole sidewalk.
I was walking in midtown in the summer, and my tiny little stroller (too hot in the summer to sling dd) very slightly clipped the heel of some woman walking ahead of me- not expensive shoes, mind you, flip-flops. I apologized immediately and profusely, and she looked at me like I had just killed her dog. And kept looking back to give me dirty looks for the next 10 fricking blocks. And I was tempted to give her a very NYC 'What's your problem, lady?'
I really feel that this whole 'problem' is being blown way out of proportion by the media in order to further divide women: Mothers vs. Non-mothers, SAHMs vs. Mamas who work outside of the home, babywearers vs. Bugaboo Frog owners.
I really hope that we can all be smarter than that and foster real dialogue and cooperation instead of bickering like two year olds.
that makes me think of how strollers aren't allowed in certain outdoor patio cafe bars. As in, yeah you are more than welcome to eat here or have a beer, but the kid has to sit on your lap at all times and you have to entrust your two hundred and fifty dollar stroller to the universe even though theres plenty of room. Bullshit.
I agree with you 100% Katja, I do think this 'problem' is created to divide us all up. I mean really, in most of the world kids are everywhere all the time and people cope.
"I think governments are the cancer of civilization. And the minute that we see seven or eight women get in a circle and start a war, I’ll be shocked like a @#%$." - Chuck D
* I'm all fight and no flight *
and that's when I start to get angry."
Exactly.
Still the bomb.
gonna slap you.
yes, i admit that after resisting mobile phones for years, i got one, and i appreciate the convenience, not to mention that sometimes the five minutes on the bus to work that i get to talk to a friend are precious grown-up relating times for me.
so, my bias is revealed. now, i have to ask why hearing the details of a stranger's life spoken into a cell phone is so unpleasant? i mean, would it be different if those details were being uttered to a physically-present companion as happened for millenia before cell phones and still happens? if so, why? seriously, i'm curious about this.
"if i pass for other than what i am/do you feel safer?" ~lani ka'ahumanu
www.walkingthewalls.blogspot.com
people generally talk a lot louder on their cell phones than they would to a person who was sitting right next to them. For me, it's equally inappropriate to hear those details spoken loudly to a real person- this is why, until I had dd, I always wore headphones on public transport. I believe in either silence or quiet, public- listening appropriate conversations while in small public spaces. I realize that just about no one else feels this way (except dh, thank God, so if we're on the subway together we bust out books and don't talk to each other) and that's why I used to make it so that I couldn't hear instead of expecting other people to not talk.
Further, though, people's real companions aren't in the habit of ringing annoyingly in a variety of custom ringtones or, even worse making a freakishly loud and annoying nextel beeping walkie-talkie sound after every sentence. Nextel must pay.
I admit that there are times when having a cellphone would be convenient, and I don't have problems with considerate cellphone users. Just that lots of folk seem to not be able to control themselves.
oh i hate the Nextel two way thing, obnoxious!
If I ever find the person whose idea that was... *looks threatening* I live in an attic apartment, and, even with the windows closed, that shit keeps me awake. You can hear it coming from like two blocks away. Grrrr.
Sunflower
"Yoda of the vagina"
Sunflower the unflower
I recently saw an extended family shopping for *neccesities* in a large department store all walkie talkin' to each other.
"beep - i'm getting the paper towels. out.
beep- roger. I've got the toilet bowl cleaner. out"
possible one of the dumbest things I have seen in a while.
I love the T-shirt idea. I'd also like one that says:
"I'm just a baby. What's YOUR excuse?"
I feel a cafepress store coming on...
Oh definitely, feel free to use it. Can you post a pic of the finished product?
"I tend to passive-aggressively indulge in fantasizing about the rude awakening all of these childless hipsters will have when they give birth and, just like that, become shunned by hip society."
Still the bomb.
point- counter-point on this a couple of months ago.
it's an interesting dilemma. i am a mother who cherishes her child-free time. it would sure spoil my only hour in a month out for a relaxing time if there were kids running amok, and i would feel very affronted by the parent who just feels entitled to just let his/her kid ruin the time of others. because you just never know what someone else is going through, or what their options are in places to go and things to do and what time they have to do it in.
but as a mother, i also see the other side, which is parents need these places too. and i am so dismissive of anyone without a child telling me what it means to be a parent. i mean, it's his shop, right? his business is coffee, he can speak on that. but he doesn't know dick about raising kids, let alone raising mine and how she will learn manners and standards for public behavior. exclude who you want, but don't talk to me about my parenting.
i think what it comes down to is that there are assholes on both sides who feel that they havet he right to dominate public spaces. childless feel that they can seamroll over parents, and some parents feel taht their kid's impulses are more important than the sanity of others. i'm with the person in the article who said that the guy has a right to put up whatever sign he pleases, and people have a right to stop going there because that offends them.
"I've done a lot of things in my life I ain't too proud of, and the things I am proud of are disgusting." - Mo Szyslak
"I've done a lot of things in my life I ain't too proud of, and the things I am proud of are disgusting." - Mo Szyslak
I use to organize in the neighborhood in question, and the Cafe owners are, um, not progressives.
Still the bomb.
I totally agree that the media has been playing into this, with the implicit message that it's now OK to be hostile to all parents, because of the stereotypical ill-behaved child. I also feel that the people who allow their kids to really misbehave in restaurants, bookstores, and other recreational public spaces are ruining it for all the other parents, who just want a relaxing place to go. It's a slippery slope. On the one hand, when you go from child-free hipster to parent, the last thing you want to do is hang out at Chuck E. Cheese's (obviously, a worst case scenario). But I sometimes feel like a hunted animal taking ds to places that I used to like to go. I've repeatedly been given hostile stares at the Santa Monica Promenade, which is an open-air mall, when my son was sleeping or just chilling in his stroller. It gets really frustrating when you just want to take a walk somewhere and get out of the house, and you get evil stares from people...and your child is just sitting in his stroller, going "da da da" at a noise level that is much softer than the tone of voice used by the average cell-phone user.
I also notice this when I'm out trying to have lunch with a childless friend, and ds is with me. I always try to be considerate of other people's space. I don't let him crawl around or get rowdy, and I will remove him from a restaurant/bookstore/shop if he starts to fuss or cry. This makes it all the more annoying when the childless friend starts to cringe, look around uncomfortably and later makes comments like, "Wow, I didn't know you were one of *those* moms."
So to get back to the original point, sometimes it does feel like there is a great deal of animosity toward all parents and children, anywhere in public, because of the inconsiderate actions of a few. And I feel like the excessive media attention to the subject makes childless people feel like it's OK to treat all parents like crap.
"There ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." - Tom Waits
I used to think that I was the only young mom with this problem.
And I would smack any 'friend', especially a childless one, who made a comment like that to me.
well said.
You know, I sort of get this...I certainly thought this before I had kids...but now I'm not so sure. Why should mothers and children be locked away from society until they are old enough to be neat and quiet?
I am a lucky one. My kid is well behaved in restaurants (KOW!!!) I would probably shy away from the experience if she screamed the whole time or even part of the time (how much fun could that be??) We have always eaten out a lot with her, maybe she is just used to the consistent pattern. I certainly think it would be much harder with 2 or more, also.
So much has already been said here on this thread, but while I was putting dd to bed I had a whole dissertation ready because I LIVE five blocks from Women and Children First and A Taste of Heaven. My personal opinion about rowdy children in restaurants aside, I feel like the article was attacking the business owner when, if you look at the examples of nasty comments made, they were LARGELY made by customers, not by the owners/staff. My daughter and I have been to A Taste of Heaven several times. I agree that it was much nicer when it was over on Ashland, lots of young artists and it was a little haven. Now their customers are very much a Starbucks crowd, everyone with their laptops sitting by the window so everyone can see how important they are at their little business meetings. BUT once when we were there my daughter ran behind the counter before I could catch here and did they say, "You better get control of your daughter!" No, they said, "Hi honey, are you going to help us make cheesecake today? Wow, she's sure walking great." She even tried to rip that little sign off the door because it was colorful and fun and no one blinked an eye. As for Women and Children First, they have a big toy bin and a little kids PIANO for crying out loud so that your kids can play while you are looking around. AND the owner told me when I couldn't find a babysitter that I was welcome to bring my then 12 month old to the talk by lucy pinball's friend damali on her book How to Rent a Negro. One day I personally sat and breastfed my daughter on the stairs by the kids books. No one said "Boo" to me. Read the first couple paragraphs of this article again. There is no mention of any owner/staff saying anything to that woman, it sounds like she herself was embarrassed/frustrated with her kids actions. The following doesn't sound like good parenting to me: she "clapped a hand over his mouth to squelch his tiny screams." If I read that out of context it almost sounds abusive. OK - so I lied when I said I would try to be brief. With all of this said, I do not go to these places daily, there probably are people there who wish children would not come in, but the article, in my humble I-live-right-down-the-street-and-walk-by-every-day-on-my-way-to-work opinion is misleading.
I just want to say that reading this just made me homesick (your reply). This is my old Chicago neighborhood, too, and MAN do I miss it. Is Kopi still around? We always were SO welcomed with the kids there. And, obviously, Women and Children First...unfortunately we lived there pre-gentrification - all I can say is - things must have really changed in the past 8 years!
Shit - I'm getting all teary.
"Our problems stem from our acceptance of this filthy, rotten system." - Dorothy Day
"Step off my big ass."
- Anthromom
mamasusie, just PM'd you so as not to totally derail the thread with my love for this neighborhood.
Okay - I am running the risk of offending just about everybody here. But I know Andersonville, and I can get where this guy is coming from. He isn't saying children aren't welcome, he's saying that in a restaurant there are basic manners and good sense that need to be followed. As an example - I had a friend (in this same neighborhood - hell, it may have been the same restaurant) who would regularly let her son do things like climb over the backs of the booths into other customer's space and say, "Oh, he's just exploring - kids explore." Same when he wandered into the kitchen. Or the coffee station. It was as though everytime she went anywhere, she felt the entire world had signed on to be her babysitter. I have inquisitive kids,too, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with teaching them basic table manners.
And this is coming from YEARS in the restaurant business - it is plain DANGEROUS to have kids run around without supervision. There are waitstaff carrying trays, sometimes with 50 pounds of food. Scalding coffee. People not looking for the toddler that they are about to trip over.
Honestly - I don't see this man's reaction as anti-children at all. I would say, more anti parents who are too self absorbed to take care of the ones they have.
"Our problems stem from our acceptance of this filthy, rotten system." - Dorothy Day
I agree with you, and don't think what he did was wrong. I think he deserves a kick in the ass for his totally misogynistic and dismissive comments about the women who were offended "former cheerleaders and beauty queens" with "entitlement issues" (the word 'entitlement' is on my hitlist as the next new overused psychobabble word).
I really do think, though, that there aren't enough child and family safe places in this culture, and that SAHMs are ghettoized to the home. But that's not this man's problem to fix. He's trying to run a business within this messed-up system, and I can understand that.
I think that it would be really cool if those offended mamas who are boycotting the cafe all got together and started a family-friendly cafe with a play area. I'd come and visit! Hell, I'd love to do it myself except that no one would come to one in my area (folks around here, by and large, aren't concerned about whether bringing their kids somewhere is appropriate. I regularly see three week old babies and preschool aged kids in R rated movies at 11pm with their parents. Hell, I once saw a whole preschool class brought to an R rated movie by their teacher).
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