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wwyd?what would you do? background: been happily (more or less) married to DH for 5 1/2 years (dated for 2 before). . .he is an artist, a searching soul and a stubborn taurus (gemini cusp). we had our first baby this past march. he has always been someone who likes to delve into the philosophical/spritual/metaphysical (while i am all about the practical). like he really use to be into numerology, astrology when i first met him. welp, we went out to visit his brother this summer who he hadn't seen in years and they spent lots of time together bonding. his brother converted to catholicism and is VERY catholic (thinks the american catholic church isn't traditional enough). . . he and his wife have 5 kids and have a traditional set-up. DH and I do not since he is the stay-at-home dad, the artist, etc. etc. DH as a result of the visit has fully embraced catholicism or what he thinks to be catholicism. . .which is o.k. with me since i figure if religion helps you. . .good for you. we've ironed through a lot of stuff that was driving me nuts (like the daily "jesus loves you" i would hear from him and him asking me not to swear at home (which is fine since i have a mouth like a sailor and with the baby i wanted to reform a bit anyhow)). i (along with my therapist and various friends) have psychoanalyzed this recent religous zealness and fervor ad nauseum. . .mid-life crisis? response to his fucked-up childhood and unhealthy family dynamics? low self-esteem? i am trying to be as patient and understanding as possible. HOWEVER, the issue that will not go away is the fact that he will no longer have sex with me. his reason? because we need to be "holy" and i won't agree to have sex without contraception. he also wants to practice "chastisy" for as long as possible because he thinks it brings us closer (although i tell him it does the opposite). this from a man who was a former hornbag. yes, i've tried to discuss this with him and have tried all various modes of communication. it really goes no where. am i being unreasonable? i think not since it is my body. should i consider natural family planning which is what he wants to do (and wouldn't be an option until i finished breastfeeding and get my period anyway, right?)? if you have been through anything similar to this please respond here or contact me one-on-one.
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Thomas Merton?
Would he read something you suggest? Thomas Merton is a Catholic monk who has written a lot of books. He's widely respected by both Catholics and other religious seekers. He's open to the spiritual teachings of other disciplines and has written about Buddhism. One of his books (Contemplative Prayer) has the forward written by Thich Nhat Hanh. He also has a book called 'Mystics and Zen Masters'. Maybe your partner would be open to reading books by him and that would be something you could share with him?!
Whew! That's a tough one.
Whew! That's a tough one. I don't know WHAT I would do. But I will say, you have a right to control your fertility...and your sexual needs are also valid. Humans DO have sexual and other physical and emotional needs--and we need to have partners who can meet these needs (not EVERY time on command, but on a whole, with love and respect for each other.)
This is pretty weird, but perhaps just a phase you can ride out? Perhaps you can introduce him to some other more sexual guru who can influence him in another direction.
You should check out the catholicism for dummies
book that's advertised over there ----->>>>>
"Fundamentally the markswoman aims at herself" DT Suzuki
Is there any other kind??
Is there any other kind??
(Sorry pence, I had to...I'll do 5 hail Marys. No, 10.)
wow, really tough...
I must admit, my knee jerk reaction is that I can't stand Catholicism or what is stands for. They are so judgemental towards other religions & so anti-woman. I was raised in a very Catholic family & the things these people believe are not for me. Granted, I would never say that to my 94 yo grandmother.
Gosh, I would die if my dh woke up a Catholic! I'd almost rather him had a mental illness. However, you are in such a tough place because it is going to be hard to get him into therapy or anything b/c Catholics usually like going to a priest for counseling. Hmm, yeah maybe you can ride it out, but the sex thing sucks! I wouldn't bet on natural family planning...that is why there are so many Catholics - it isn't that effective & I know at least 6 moms who got pregnant breastfeeding with no period.
Good luck, sorry that I have no real words of advice.
that's o.k.
to not have advice. i just feel so much better after sharing this. to know that my internal reaction to this is similar to a lot of you mamas. i want my husband back!!!! so i can take pleasure in the three of us being a comfortable family.
How do you feel about
How do you feel about Catholicism? Is this a religion you are interested in or called to pursue in any way? Do you have spiritual callings? If you do, or if you are willing to be open to a spiritual/religious practice, do you think he would agree to looking into one that the both of you could agree on and share?
Hammy has a good friend who is severely Baptist. I like this guy a lot but do not share his beliefs about 'salvation'. He's always giving Hammy books to read and inviting him to woship services. Hammy is not really interested in this guy's church, but often does read the books. Scares me a lot. I was raised Midwest Baptist and have a knee-jerk aversion to fundamentalism. I KNOW I could not be married to an evangelical Christian. Hammy has visited Friends Meeting with me, but feels he needs a lot more structure and ritual than the Quakers practice. I have said many times that I am open to trying out whatever spiritual discipline he wants to pursue-within reason.
I can't hang with Catholicism; it's too patriarchal and hierarchical for me to be comfortable with. But one of my closest friends is devoutly Catholic and I deeply respect her and her beliefs and faith. She also respects mine.
Is he being respectful of you and your beliefs?
You're in a really tough situation. He's the one who's changing all the rules but is totally convinced that he's in the right because "God is on his side". Doesn't leave you much room to move.
From what you say about him embracing things and then moving on, it almost sounds bi-poler to me. My brother suffers from manic-depression and has, at various times, gone totally religious for a few months at a time (used to be mainly baptist judgementalism but as he's gotten older, he's gotten obsessed with the "white goddess" and some Hindu practices-which has been a breath of fresh air, let me tell you!). Hopefully this phase will pass without too much harm done. Maybe introduce him to Catholic/religious iconography from many different cultures to see if that opens his mind to many ways to understand, worship and follow God.
Best of luck!
You wrote: Is he being
You wrote: Is he being respectful of you and your beliefs?
Very good point. This is definitely what should be explored, here, imho.
"Our problems stem from our acceptance of this filthy, rotten system." - Dorothy Day
"Step off my big ass."
- Anthromom
nope on respecting
my beliefs when it comes to the religion thing, because he seems to see himself as the "moral compass" for the family (his words not mine). . .and that he is doing all of this to "bring us into the kingdom of heaven". . .and i usually retort that he should focus on his individual pursuits and that i am cool with that, but that i feel that it is disrespectful to try to push his agenda on me. sometimes he relents and other times he gets even more worked up about it. that's why the sex thang bugs me so much, because it only came up one day when i began to initiate stuff (since he hadn't in so long) and that's when he told me that if we were to do anything it could not be with contraception because than the state would be coming in between us (huh????) and that we would be participating in our society's death culture by not promoting life (double huh??????). yeah, so i am not feeling the respect too much!
yeah that ain't right
that's delusional thinking, not religiousness.
"I've done a lot of things in my life I ain't too proud of, and the things I am proud of are disgusting." - Mo Szyslak
"I've done a lot of things in my life I ain't too proud of, and the things I am proud of are disgusting." - Mo Szyslak
i share your reaction
to catholicism. i admire people who are religious, but i have never been called to anything really strongly (except maybe the nature gods while sitting on the beach sipping a gin and tonic and watching the sun set). i like the idea of introducing iconography from many cultures. . .especially since he is artist and is big into images.
my tolerance for all of this is coupled to the fact that i have a new baby, am struggling with the newness of motherhood and just want to have something safe and familiar to come home to. . .and instead i feel as if the rug has been ripped out and i do whatever i can to keep a semblance of normalcy to our relationship even if it means swallowing my opinions, my sense of who i am. but how does one do this indefinitely?
Have you had a talk about death
Sometimes, when there's an abrupt change in religious/philosophical views, it can be cause by contemplation or fear of death...and what comes afterwards. Maybe that's what he and his brother talked about? I think you are being an amazing partner through this whole thing...he is very lucky to have you.
If you don't want to get pregnant, the breastfeeding method does not work all that well. My midwife said it's supposed to be 98% effective, but she's already had a bunch of clients get pregnant that way. I know a woman who got pregnant 2.5 months after she had her baby, and she was exclusively breastfeeding and never had her period yet.
You could go and get an IUD. He wouldn't even know you had one put in...and they're really easy to take out. They are as effective as sterilization, but you'll probably spot blood for a few days afterwards. I don't know if you'd be okay with not telling him about that though...that's what I'd do.
"Fundamentally the markswoman aims at herself" DT Suzuki
Oh, shoot - that's a tough
Oh, shoot - that's a tough one.
My advice would be to see what you can find out about family planning from purely Catholic sources (I used to work with a bunch of nuns, for example, who thought that the "no birth control" rule was total bunk, but they were highly educated women.) Maybe you can speak to a hip priest or sister and have them give your husband a little talking to. The chastity thing is a bit strange, I feel. Chastity to bring one closer to God was intended, as I understand it, for single folk, not those in a marital relationship. I was taught that sex was one of those things God declared to be INCREDIBLY important within marriage Hugely significant in that it brings together a man and a woman within the context of the shared image of God. Because sex is God’s idea in the first place, and because it supposedly touches the image of God in human life.(I'm unmarried, myself, so take this all with a grain of salt!)
I'd start with an internet search for Catholic teachings regarding birth control, and go from there. You are absolutely right. It is your body, and I'll bet that you can find a supporter of the Catholic faith who agrees with you on this, at least until your husband gets this all out of his system (which, given his past history of "searching", it sounds like he may do). He needs to remember that if he's serious about the church, his biggest obligation should be to his family.
"Our problems stem from our acceptance of this filthy, rotten system." - Dorothy Day
"Step off my big ass."
- Anthromom
if he is open
to natural family planning, and that level of risk is ok with you, then i say do it. seems like he is a guy who goes whole-hog into stuff that interests him, till he loses interest. maybe you can ride out this wave?
but if NFP isn't ok with you, then i don't think you should play along. my snap judgement about his wanting to be "holy" is pathological. i worked with the mentally ill for years, and religious obsession is so common, even among people who were athiest or disinclined toward religiousness before. you can embrace the person, without embracing the pathology.
"I've done a lot of things in my life I ain't too proud of, and the things I am proud of are disgusting." - Mo Szyslak
"I've done a lot of things in my life I ain't too proud of, and the things I am proud of are disgusting." - Mo Szyslak
you've summed it up
about his whole-hog bit. . .which was one of the reasons that i was drawn to him (what's that old adage about what you are attracted to can also repulse?)
but there is this part of me that is really really scared that he won't move out of it and that it is a sign of something more, deeper, i.e. something mental (since there is illness that runs in his family). because at this point there is no reasoning with him over certain stuff (like the sex. . .like the fact that i had a minor in religion in college and that he will start spouting off all of this religious info from a very very slanted viewpoint and there is no way to counter the info. if i question it, it becomes a battle. . .he prays every morning for over an hour (the rosary and additional prayers) and every night in front of a statue of the christ child he has set up in our living room. . .and this is just a radical departure from our lives before. our existence was pretty free-spirited and "liberal". . . it is almost like becoming a father has triggered something in him. can certain events trigger people this way???). i wish it was easier to embrace him, but i feel that the pathological aspects of this infiltrates so much of our relationship at a core level.
thanks for your reply. . .this has been (silently) weighing on me for months.
pence, what illness runs through his family?
How old is he (roughly)? Also when, exactly, did you notice this change and what was going on in the year to 6 months before up until you noticed a radical change?
dad is bi polar
his dad's sister was schizophrenic. . .and if i had to diagnosis his mom (who left the family when DH was little) i'd say she was borderline personality. . .he is 38 and in terms of events? within the past year his mother (who he has a tumultuous relationship with since she is very difficult) moved back from scotland and bought a house a mile from us and we became parents for the first time. pretty significant stuff.
he is anti-meds and anti-counseling . . .and i have tried numerous times to gently or sometimes not so gently encourage him/us to get into counseling. absolutely refuses.
Yes, bipolar disorder came to mind as one possibility,
but frankly, I can't say if that's the cause. (Not a therapist, and no therapist would diagnose secondhand over the Internet.) I'm sure there could be a variety of reasons.
I don't know what to suggest. Family doc? I'm so sorry you're in this tough spot and hope things get better.
yes, it can
how old is he? and his brother, that seems suspect to me too. seriously, i think praying for an hour every day is compulsive. to contrast: when i became interested in buddhism, i bought a book. then a month or so later, i began to be attracted to japanese-style decor. then i got another book, you get the idea. i didn't get into meditation at the zendo on sundays for months. and even then, it was there, not at home. i got my first buddha statuette after two years, and a year after that i got a quan yin.
when you are interested in something and it's stimulating to you, it grows on you and with you and all of that. and when you are raised religious, you can tend to take it too seriously, and certain points in your life may make you lean harder on it than others. but to adopt it as an adult, and go to extremes like that, seems compulsive to me and i would advise him to take that very seriously. i hate to generalize so i usually don't, but catholicism sucked up a lot of the patients i worked with. i think it's something about the ritual, the physical rites, blessing yourself, getting on one knee, both knees, all in a precisely choreographed order, that really lends itself to severe mental illness, and it should be taken seriously.
not trying to be alarmist here, which is why i started with, if NFP is ok with you, do it. i still feel that way. but don't be afraid to intervene if necessary.
and don't be a stranger. PM me if you think that will help.
"I've done a lot of things in my life I ain't too proud of, and the things I am proud of are disgusting." - Mo Szyslak
"I've done a lot of things in my life I ain't too proud of, and the things I am proud of are disgusting." - Mo Szyslak